54 Proposed rule changes.

Mike I would not know where to start to answer some of your more bizarre points. So letÔÇÖs just leave it that we will have to agree to totally disagree.

You make a big point about the judges training. Not sure if you agree. This test involves being tasked with answering number of questions on the JCNA rule book where along with the question the page and paragraph number is given as too where the answer can be found in the rule book. What sort of test is that?
How about a test that involves a closed rule book test along with a test to establish that you actually know something about model of Jaguar you are supposed to be judging. I wish when I sat for my Engineering degree I was offered such a test where they allowed me an open book and in addition gave me the location of the right answers within that book and I was not expected to be able to use any of the machinery found in a manufacturing shop..

When I have asked this question in the past the answer I was given was, you expect people to study for that sort of examination. We use volunteers at these shows and my expectation is unreasonable under those circumstances. Which is a very valid point.

I will correct you on another offensive point you attempted to make. I never expected or suggested that a car should be allowed to cross enter into both driven and championship classes. Have no idea when you got that from. I clearly stated Championship and Preservation class. My writing must have been unclear when you read what you thought you read or were you just trying to make a point by totally misrepresenting what I wrote.

As far as asking questions and sharing knowledge. Firstly I don't drink so you would never find me in a bar. Difficult to point to fault or highlighting an item or items that are not original on a car when the vehicle is no longer there in front of you. I also donÔÇÖt have the time to go chasing entrants around the country side just so I can talk to them about their concours participation.

Anyway enough. I have spent too much time on this already and it is not going to change your mind one bit.

Hello Mike, i think you are taking this far to seriously. We are all entitled to our opinions, in fact they are necessary in order that fair judgements are made, AND, my solution is printed right there on my post, Regards to all.

Bob,

Did you or did you not start this post by stating that the additional rules would be detrimental to concours? It is not more rules that is detrimental, it is the watering down of the consistent standards of competition by incompetent and unmotivated judging. Therefore, my allusion to the post discussing this issue is more than relevant - indeed, it is a poignant example of the very problem you are expressing - those (and I assume now that you are included) who think there should not only be Champion, Driven and Display, but multiple iterations of each of those distinctions based on whether the entrant is "serious" or not.

Gee, should judges ask entrants whether they are serious before they start judging?

What kind of straw argument is it to say that "there is a vast difference between the serious entrants that campaigns his or her car around the Concours circuit to that of the novice enthusiast that attends one show a year"? Of course there is a difference, but what does that have to do with anything? There is a difference between an apple and an orange as well. Concours is concours. We were all a novice at some point. What is it you want?

Bob, you seem to be the type that reads part of something and makes up your mind about the rest of it. You read some of the rule changes and decide they are detrimental, without specifying any; you dismiss my post as making "some very good points" (actually, all my points are very good, whether or not you agree with them); you assume the rule which states that entrants cannot influence judges during judging means you can't ask questions before or after judging, outside of concours, at a bar, at church, in a hole, with a mole, or at any other time.

I attended shows without a car, brought my car as display, and competed in driven - all before I ever entered champion division. JCNA has judges training and clinics, and all of these things are open to anyone. It's like you expect to go Formula 1 racing with no training in a go-cart and get special treatment.

I want more people involved in concours, but not at the expense of concours itself. What you seem to be proposing may make more people happy for a year or two because the judges will judge on a curve, or whatever you want, and everyone will get the score they want instead of the one they deserve - but it will ruin the credibility of JCNA concours and eventually no one will show up because it will be a joke.

I agree with you on one point and one point only - no car should qualify for a perfect score. - whether for doors or paint or anything. This is the problem with JCNA and this is what is going to keep more people away. As I stated on the other post, I have never seen a 100 point car, and I have owned cars that finished the year with perfect scores.

You know Bob, I could go on and on here, but I am not going to waste time on this when I think the real point here is this:

What do you think should happen? You have spent a lot of time telling us what you hate, but you have posited no discernable solution, except that apparently there should be multiple concours judging standards based on the expertise of the entrant. Tell us what you want, bullet point by bullet point. I know Dick and all of us will discuss them - but make a point and quit whining...

Here are your 2 reasons for wanting to double dip and why they make no sense:

1. Because someone else did it:

OK, so because someone else did it
a. that means we should all do it, and
b. that means it can never be changed?

As happens with any competition on the planet, as it evolves issues are raised, addressed, and a concensus is acheived. This is one of those, but if this is the reason I don't think your going to be very persuasive.

2.. why not let entrants enter in multiple classes because they take care of their original condition cars?

Because with that logic we could enter in champion and driven as well, which contradicts your own desire to get the trailer queens out of driven.

And this part is for Bill Brady:

Don't hit us with how long you have been in X Y or Z. The point is you gave up. How many AGMs did you participate in? How many rules did you write?

I know I have competed more cars in more concours in the last 10 years than anyone in JCNA, and I don't see that the judges are "focused" on cosmetics. They give it as much weight points wise as everything else. But if a judge does not know what is correct or authentic on any of the cars they are judging, what do you think they are going to focus on? The judges need to get as serious as the owners.

I know more about what is correct and authentic on the cars I campaign than any judge - and that should be the case for anyone who participates in concours. Maybe not the first time, maybe not the 10th time, but eventually you will know, becuase you care. I asked first, I studied, I listened. Judges ask me now. Nothing wrong about that.

Once again, Bill, you have done an excellent job of nagging about something, without proposing a solution.

I have: http://www.jcna.com/forums/view.php?Vref=JCNA&Vfnum=021&Vthread=7946

I think Bob Higgs lays out a good case. I have been a member of JOCLA for 30 years and the JDC (UK) for 39. I gave up judging here at club level because I felt much like Bob. To me the car is first and foremost a machine, it should be judged as such. What kind of standard are we looking for when we focus almost entirely on cosmetics. I still judge Jaguars - and other British cars- but only in regional full Concours and I communicate with every owner, giving advice or suggestions. A number of years ago I was asked to Judge, then found out I wasn't eligable because I had not attended a "judging Class"??. Also there aught to be a year cut off for concours. i see no point in allowing recent models to enter, they should be DRIVEN until they are considered (of AGE.

George. I agree with you they are. However the rules that have changed are somewhat important and certainly do change the game somewhat. That is why I asked if others see them the same.

Okay so I admit you make some very good points. However I will point out to you that the thread that you highlighted concerned the non uniformity of judging standards employed around the clubs. A totally different matter to what we are currently discussing.

You mention the standard of the cars being presented for judging. You have to agree that there is a vast difference between the serious entrants that campaigns his or her car around the Concours circuit to that of the novice enthusiast that attends one show a year. Judges are encouraged not to get into conversations with these entrants. So how are these novice entrants supposed to learn how to present their cars. While on that subject it is also forbidden to discuss or compare faults of cars in a class, so how then are Judges also supposed to learn.

I have always ignored these rules as I think entrants deserve to know. As a result I have always been willing to discuss with anybody what is wrong with their car and the deductions I have made. In addition I would also discuss with them how they can improve their car for the next time. I have also been willing to discuss with other judges, faults on different cars. I believe it is the only way they will get to learn. I have never been interested in trashing a personÔÇÖs car with the scoring that they have been alienated from attending another Concours, despite all the other perks being available to them that you have pointed out should be able to entice them back.

I also don't believe and never will that a professionally restored car, one that has had all the panels realigned with all the manufacturing faults having been removed should ever qualify for a perfect score. The base standard for judging is supposed to be "How the car left the production line". What is the difference between having all the faults removed to somebody that dresses his car out and polishes parts that were never polished ect. I believe the car that most represents the base standard, should always get marked higher.

Another pet peeve of mine is with the tell tales mounted in the front wing mounted indicator lights. Fact is that the first car to leave Browns lane with these fitted came to the States and was completely disassembled to have a new coat of paint applied (gold colour I believe). When it was reassemble the installer installed the tell tales the wrong way round and 100's of pictures were taken of this car. That then became the standard for all North American cars. Not only does it look stupid mounted that way around it removes its original intended function, That being to allow the driver to see that the lights are working hence the name tell tale. That is the sole reason for them to be sticking up at the rear. I happen to have been speaking to the original manufacture of the tell tales in England and they burst into laughing when I told them about this. they did not understand how this could be.

We also keep being told that there is an appeals process that can be used when there are disagreements with the judging. This is not entirely accurate. Yes there is an appeals process for such things as non original equipment but try to appeal a deduction that has been made because of a supposed a miss fitting door, ripples in a hood, wrinkles is a sun visor even un-cleanliness and you will be totally out of luck. I would rather the entrant see the deduction and talk to me about it first. This business of hiding the score sheet from the entrant when he only gets to see it a month later when it arrives in the mail, is beyond me. Yes I know some entrants can get testy but it is far easier to handle it there and then rather than have him or her running around maligning Concours for the foreseeable future.

I also do not find it acceptable that when a clarification to a rule is added it always seems to leave out cars that were not true American imports. Surely if the research gas been done thoroughly all models should have been included. Well those available in the regions covered by JCNA clubs at least.

I also will never agree that a car cannot be entered into two classes for the reasons I have already given. If it legitimately qualifies for entry into both classes it should be allowed to enter. It was certainly okay for a past Vice President of JCNA to have entered his car into both for I believe the past eight years. So what changed this year.

Bob have you actually looked at all of them or did you read the title. Most are housekeeping and clarification. If you wish to discuss them why not do so rather than make a "sky is falling" statement. At the end of the day it will be up to the clubs to discuss and vote on all of these (except house cleaning) at the AGM. Will you be there?

Bob,

My reply here is not directed specifically at you, but at an underlying thread of logic that I think equally dangerous to the future of JCNA concours.

"Concours events as we have known them" are frought with problems. If there is any doubt, please re-read your own post. http://www.jcna.com/forums/view.php?Vref=JCNA&Vfnum=021&Vthread=7946

As I have stated time and time again for years, there are a plethora of positive events and functions for JCNA members to take part in. We have something for everyone.

In fact, concours itself is likewise higly inclusive. There are multiple concours classes for members, and every JCNA member should feel encouraged and welcome to bring a car to concours - whether it be in Champon, Driven, or Display (or maybe not even a Jaguar...). Concours is multiple things, and I think it should appeal to all. Some events have attendant raffles, some have lunch, some sponsor booths and shopping, some have elegant award dinners and cocktail hours. If you can't find something to enjoy about a JCNA concours you are in the wrong club.

That said, it should not be the goal of JCNA, nor it's members, to water down concours because we don't think the judging is fair. The fact is, the judging is NOT fair currently, and that is something that needs to be addressed - but as a separate issue.

I'm tired of people who don't even give their cars a proper washing, showing up in Champion or Driven Division, and then complaining because their car did not get as high a score as they thought it should. As one who has judged before, let me tell you it is all I can do to keep from smacking the owner in the head with my clipboard... Honestly, you expect me to judge this??? Unfortunately, though, this is all too common...

Champion Division should be the best of the best. If your car has stone chips and blemmishes it should not be expected to win in Champion Division, so enter it at your own risk .

Driven Division cars are not as thoroughly judged - but condition, cleanliness, fit and finish are just as important on the items that ARE judged. If someone shows up in Driven with a car on a trailer, maybe their car has chips and blemmishes as well, but maybe they didn't want to damage it or tarnish the cleaning they did the day before. Or maybe they came from 1000 miles away - so then what do they do, take it off the trailer at the hotel and drive it 3 miles to the show? What is the difference?

If people think concours has gotten too difficult for them to WIN in, that is not a statement about concours - it is a statement about our members or the entrants. Concours is competition, and therefore there are rules. As the competition standards increase, so too the rules must change to reflect the higher standards. If people want to invent their own set of "class rules" so that everyone can get a piece of hardware, feel free. Whatever makes you happy. But JCNA Concours is not just a local or regional competition, but a national one, and so rules need to be made so that those standards are maintained.

I don't see why rule clarifications, and addenda to address recent protests, should be considered discouraging to participation - which is what most of the changes are. Anything that makes it easier for judges to do their job will only serve to improve concours, since this is the biggest problem - namely, that there is a lack of knowledge and consistency among judges.

I want and expect people who care about their cars to actively particpate in concours, not because they want or expect the hardware, but because they want to share their passion with others. Every owner should particpate, even if it simply as display.

And as far as double dipping (I mean entering) is concerned - if you can't understand why this both discourages greater participation and fails to demonstrate the spirit of concours, then I can't explain it...