Cooling system

Check out the web site:

http://coolcatcorp.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=SFNT

Glenn Ray
'66 E-Type OTS
JAG of Michigan NC-19)

Their has been several references in this discussion to cool cat fans. I would like to get info but had no luck finding their web site.I keep getting a computer soft ware outfit. can you help please.

Installed the new aluminum radiator, by-pass thermostat, and otter switch. Filled system with a 50-50 mix of distilled water and anit-freeze.
Added a bottle of "water-wetter". One glitch. The otter switch functioned once and now will not work! A fuse blew during the process but I don't know if these two events are connected. I by-passed the otter switch and the fan runs constantly. After an hours driving yesterday in 85 degree heat the temp guage needle never made it to the "N" in Normal. It appears the old radiator was not up to the task of keeping the engine cool. Thanks to all of you for your comments.
Ray Suchta

Oh yes, also installed the foam shroud .
Ray Suchta

Installed the new aluminum radiator, by-pass thermostat, and otter switch. Filled system with a 50-50 mix of distilled water and anit-freeze.
Added a bottle of "water-wetter". One glitch. The otter switch functioned once and now will not work! A fuse blew during the process but I don't know if these two events are connected. I by-passed the otter switch and the fan runs constantly. After an hours driving yesterday in 85 degree heat the temp guage needle never made it to the "N" in Normal. It appears the old radiator was not up to the task of keeping the engine cool. Thanks to all of you for your comments.
Ray Suchta

The pressure cap should be on the overflow tank. Make a template of the foam thingy and you can cut your own with a bandsaw, then spray paint gray.

Guys,
It made sense to me that the foam went on top of the radiator but being a neophyte with these cars I thought I'd check. regarding the alternator, it has it's own drive belt, as does the water pump as did the A/C compressor. The compressor took the space occupied by the alternator which is why it was moved above the radiator. The new radiator arrived. The manufacturer reccomends a 13pasi cap for it. As you know the preesure cap should be on the overflow tank. Should I run two pressure caps or just switch them? I feel good about this.

Ray Suchta

Good on you. The factory had long placed "wadding" over radiators to force more air thru the rad. The foam can only help. I do agree that when the foam is in bad shape it looks bad but it was a service item that was to be changes yearly.

George Camp

George:

Well, we've certainly spent a long time on this one!

His alternator tensioner does look odd. But I still think that if the water pump belt was slipping, he'd be complaining about drained batteries and such.

My take on this is that the car was ready for a cooling problem, and it's become apparent now that the weather has warmed up. But I'm making the assumption that he's in the Northeast.

I've never noticed a difference with the foam...except that the engine looks better without it. I have a whole series of cooling system air flow experiments planned...I will test the effect of the foam and report hard results.

I agree that aluminum radiators are often offered as a panacea, but I think he really has a radiator problem. He could try a good pressure flush, or incremental cures...rodding, new core, etc. But if he's got an aluminum radiator coming, that's going to solve it.

Mike Frank

Mike I agree but that system went from sugar to s--t according to the story with the removal of the ac system. It should have been improved if anything. I saw a S3 or V12 adjuster on the alt. and since I could not think or see any other reason for his sudden overheating thought it might be a cure. With his heat problem he might not know he has a charging problem if the 3AW is not working (not unusual). Not sure where you drive but here in the sub-tropics the foam (maintained) will drop a good 10 deg. on the road and with AC is a must if you do not want to run on the edge. There is nothing wrong with allu. radiators except except a lot of people think they are a cure. Of all the cars I maintain or have restored I have one with an alum. radiator. None overheat. None have dirty systems and all have good waterpumps and most important proper cam timing. This last issue is responsible for many latent heat problems.

George Camp

Ray: Sorry, I just posted my car photo for the sake of eye candy. On a series 1, the seal (felt) runs across the top of the stone guard. On a series 2, a big chunk of foam rubber sits across the top of the radiator.
Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

George:

The water pump was driven by a dedicated belt on all versions of the S2 A/C setup. So unless this system was non-factory, I don't see how the water pump would have been affected by removing the compressor. And this system looks factory (at least as far as the ancillary set up). In any event, the alternator is driven off the water pump, so if the pump belt was slipping, he'd be having electrical issues, as well.

I'd like to see a restrictor on his bypass hose. His fan is ugly, but it's working, and this style of fan doesn't require a shroud. If the foam actually lowers his temps by 10 degrees (not my experience), he's still in trouble. That only leaves the radiator. I think the aluminum radiator will do the trick.

Mike Frank

No- the foam is on top or the rad. and seals the rad. to the bonnet forcing the air thru the rad. The aloy radiator is a waist of $$$$. If the problem is the rad. you will spend too much and not be origional which is a good rad. The problem is prob. not in the rad. in which case it will not fix the prob. and you will have spent too much.

George Camp

George, All of the hardware for the A/C/ is out (Compressor, drier, condensor etc.) I bought the foam radiator shroud. From the photo of Patrick's car it looks likr the foam shroud is mounted in front of the stone guard. Am I correct? A new alloy radiator, thremostat, fan swirch is on order. I will fix this.
Ray Suchta

I have been watching this thead- I thought it was said that ALL ac stuff was removed- I still see wiring from the ac. The fan area is all F- uped and needs attention- My guess is now that the water pump belt is not working and the compressor belt was turning the water pump. In any case get a twin fan cowel and get two fans in there. While you are at it put the foam shroud on the radiator to drop it another 10 deg. Good luck.

George Camp

Ray: I've been saving this link in my "favorites" for some time now. Scroll down and check out the Griffith radiator. The scalloped sides aren't that far away from an original S1. Of course, this is for racing and lacks a bypass...and you'd have to have some studs welded to the top and bottom for mounting in an E-Type, the the price isn't that bad.
(copy and put on one line)
http://www.performancebodies.com/2002%20catalog/cooling/radiators.html#g...

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

At this point, I wouldn't worry about the bypass. 220 is too hot. You'd probably be on the shoulder at 240.

Mike Frank

Mike, I neglected to drill that 1/8 inch hole in the thermostat. How much of a difference can that make? Also is 220 degrees hot, extra hot or meltdown?

Ray Suchta

Ray:

If the fan is turning the right way, and the thermostat is OK,then it's clearly something else...check that the lower radiator hose isn't collapsed. If not, then be suspicious of the radiator itself. There are plans for converting a Chevy aluminum raditor to use on a S 1 E-Type posted on this site. Your car would be a variation on the theme, since you have the S1 bypass arrangement.

http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0020.html

Good Luck,
Mike Frank

Patrick, The car has too many positive aspects, body, chrome, interior, lack of rust to let the carb change matter. Personally, I like the triple SU set up and bought the car to drive. I realize the attraction and worth of original cars but will not go to that expense here. The lack of a proper colling fan shroud is perplexing. The quality (or lack therof)of the A/C hose installation makes me wonder if that was a retro-fit. From what I know the car was originally titled in Michigan and then went to Florida (A/C add-on?)then to Pennsylvania. I believe I am the fifth owner.I will get this cooling problem fixed. Thanks for your thoughts and to everyone else that responded to the question. (Oh yes, both my sons drive rice burners. It will be interesting to see the classic car hobby in 25 years!)
Ray Suchta

Mike, I changed the thermostat on Sat. Autozone hadn't heard of Robert Shaw model but they did find one that fit. Stat #45358. Ran the car for a while temp guage went into the red zone but did not max out. Measured the water temp in the expansion tank. 220 degress F.

Ray Suchta

What I meant was that an un-altered E-Type would be better suited for you. I didn't mean go buy a rice rocket.

Patrick McLoad

Ray: I think this thread has gone about as far as it's going to go. Mike had the right closing comments. Any change you can make towards original will only benefit the well-being and appearance of the car. Obviously, there are many issues that are contributing to your overheating problem, so my advice is to go through it all. I really think you need a correct fan shroud that is sealed all around the radiator, and, two high velocity fans CoolCat fans. And then replace the thermostat and coolant (50/50 mixture). Heck, even replace the water pump as they are cheap. You should perhaps get all of these items and have a Jag mechanic make the changes to get the temperature down...and even this is assuming your gage is giving a correct reading. I run around down here in the Texas heat (98 degrees) and nary have a problem with overheating.

I personally believe that the dinky fan without a shroud is a large contributing problem; you're only cooling a very small percentage of the area of the radiator. Making these changes isn't all that expensive, and if it is, then perhaps this E-Type isn't the right sportscar for you. If you still can't get the temperature down, then there is probably some sort of blockage in the water jacket in your block.

Best of luck, and let us know what you find.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Mike,
Fan is blowing back toward the engine. This would be correct for a "puller" fan, right?

Ray Suchta

Mike,
Right side, engine

Ray Suchta

Mike
right and left photos of engines follow

Ray Suchta

Ray:

The directions to get Heritage Trust information can be found at:
http://www.jcna.com/library/heritage.html

However, I think we can tell you pretty much exactly how your car was originally configured: You originally had two Stromberg carbs. There was a heat crossover pipe which went from your rear exhaust manifold to your intake manifold: it was part of the pollution control system, and has been removed. Your car originally had two ten inch fans, as in the all-too-pretty picture that Pascal posted. You did have factory A/C. Your current wiring harness is "creative": I'm not sure you have an otter switch controlling your fan, and your relays don't look to be where they should be (on the picture frame).

At some point, your car was converted to triple SU carbs, using a 3.8 Ser I intake manifold. Your bypass was blocked off on the radiator, because this manifold incorporates a bypass hose on the front of the thermostat housing that connects directly to the water pump.

The question is, what do you want to do? If you want to make it into a "correct" E-Type, that's expensive, and it would take more than a few e-mails to get you on track. If you want to make it into a show quality E-Type, that's real expensive. My advice: start by getting it running and enjoy it while the sun is shining, you can always get abitious later.

To fix up your overheating problem. You never answered on whether your fan was running or the direction it was turning. Given that you were fooling with the A/C system, I'm still betting that the wiring is reversed or otherwise compromised.

As for the thermostat. The original bellows-style thermostat was designed to close off the bypass as it openned. Many vendors claim to have the S I E-Type thermostat in stock, but in truth, you rarely find a correct original these days. My advice is to get an ordinary thermostat from the auto parts store, 170F or 180F. Robertshaw Extra Performance thermostats ($4), model 330-180 is available at Autozone, and has a shell similar to that of the original thermostats. It may actually be effective in closing the bypass. But what I suggest you also do is insert a restrictor in the bypass hose...just pick up a brass fitting of some sort at Home Depot, make sure it has a small ID (1/4" or 3/8"), and that it can be wedged tightly into the bypass hose (the right angle hose between the water pump and the intake manifold).

For the fan. Your present fan looks to be about 14", which explains why it's working at all. If you don't want to go to the trouble and expense of hunting down a stock shroud and fans, I would recommend replacing it with a 16" fan, such as a Permacool 19126. You can refer to my aftermarket fan faq if you go this route.(http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0008.html)

If your fan is going and your thermostat is working, you will run cooler.Meatball surgery, but it'll get you back on the road so that you can enjoy the summer. You can always decide to do more later.

Mike Frank

Mike,
Is there a way to find out how the car originally left the factory. Triumph's and MG's can go through Bitish Motor Heritage but since Jaguar is still building cars (even though owned by Ford) is it possible to contact them?

Ray Suchta

Mike,
Series 2 radiator on a series 1 carb set up? Which would explain the blocked by-pass hose.

Ray Suchta

Ray: It appears you have the Series 1, three SU carb set up, and (I'm not so sure because I'm a S2 guy) a Series 1 intake manifold (although I don't recognize it as such). The thermostat would therefore be a S1 and I don't know much about them. More big pictures of the entire right side would help the others. I'm dropping out, cause as Mike said, your car has been creatively alterred, God knows what else has been changed. I'd be glad to advise you if you decide to restore the car to its original configuration. There maybe no place for the bypass hose to connect to at the thermostat housing. Where are you located? Maybe someone close can help you sort this beast out.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Left side of Radiator

Ray Suchta

Ray Suchta

Mike,
It's the bypass hose that is capped off!

Ray Suchta

Ray: The bypass is to the right of the large hose, looking forward. It parallels the large hose running to the thermostat housing. Its about a 1/2" o.d. hose. Make sure you use a 50% water/antifreeze mixture using distilled water. I'd check the thermostat before going to the expensive, but original, dual fan and shroud solution. Good used original shrouds and fans can be had at Jaguar Heaven in Stockton, California or other specialized dismantlers depending on where you are located. I know nothing of the "Coolcats" that the others have mentioned. Incidently, you have variation 1 of the S2 E-type, but the aluminum crossover has been removed -how was it blocked or routed on the other side of the engine? You may want to look at my S2 Judge's guide on the Concours Page of this site. This variation in FHC is relatively rare, but nobody seems to care. Keep us posted.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Aha!! No steam!
No doubt a fan shroud is in your future with a couple of CoolCats.
Put me down for $10.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Can't tell from the photo. is the bypass tube to the thermostat to the right of the large hose at top of radiator. Mine is capped off. See photo.

Ray Suchta

No steam, ever!

Ray Suchta

I saw the upload notice (I get a notice just to make sure that some joker didn't upload some inapropriate images...) so they were uploaded. unfortunately you didn't complete the process which is to click on the close window link in the upload window and then submit the post from the forum or gallery page. It's explained but you're not the only one who didn't see it... so I guess i'll have to make it big bod and red :-)

I'll link them to your post manually...

looks like you're missing a fan there... shoudl work at speed but at low speed there is no way the car will not run hot.

check the image below... from a 69... you can clearly see both fans and shroud. More pictures at the link below... although I should warn you that it's from a Trailer Queen so looking at the images will make you feel depressed... as a Driver (with a capital D) I feel depressed whenever I see such a clean engine compartment... untill I get in the car and drive it:-)

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

I uplaoded an image of my radiator. Where do I find it on the site?

Ray Suchta

Ray Suchta
Pat,
No shroud for two fans. Photos of set up will follow.

Patrick: How much are you in this for? You got the wire colors right.

Ray: The temp gauge is grounded through the bracket, so its important to tighten the center bracket screw, but my money's still on the thermostat. Incidently in my youth, I cooked an MGB outside of Rapid City, SD on my way to Montana, thinking that I had a bad temp guage when, in fact, I had a bad thermostat. Cost about $500.00 for a complete rebuild back then at the Rapid City MG Dealership. Thermostats were $1.95.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Aha! I knew someone would focus in on that.

As you recall, Ray said the header tank would over-flow coolant, but he DIDN'T say that it was spewing/boiling out! As guru Pascal so adroitly pointed out, there will be some expansion and loss of coolant. I'll bet Ray is running a high percentage of coolant, and the expansion of the coolant is what he's seeing, not boil out! If the temperature of the engine was REALLY near nuclear meltdown, there would be all kinds of steam coming out of the over-flow tube, and you could just smell things starting to burn.

So with that clear and correct diagnosis, just go ahead and send the booty for me to hold. This will eventually save time!

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

>>>Well, you've wasted another perfectly good hour with the dual-cam brothers. Many thanks to our production manager, Jack Ur, our electrician, Lou Kass, our master of ceremony, Billy Ons. Vehicles supplied by Mike Carr, tools by Barra D. Spana, parts by Anita R. E. Pare, fuels by Phil R. Up, lubricants by Ken Dahl. And remember, don't drive like my brother. Mike Frank

WHAAAAAT ??? Mike... sounds to me like you need a Coolcat fan up there... :-)

Pascal

Well, you've wasted another perfectly good hour with the dual-cam brothers. Many thanks to our production manager, Jack Ur, our electrician, Lou Kass, our master of ceremony, Billy Ons. Vehicles supplied by Mike Carr, tools by Barra D. Spana, parts by Anita R. E. Pare, fuels by Phil R. Up, lubricants by Ken Dahl.

And remember, don't drive like my brother.

Mike Frank

Patrick: Even though we trust you, you can't hold your own money. So if you're going to bet you can't hold. Maybe Pascal can hold. Anyway, if it was just the guage, why did the expansion tank overflow? WTOTM?

Mike: I forgot to mention the shipping and handling costs we'd save if we started the raffle with Ray's missing fan(s).
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Okay guys, my money says it's an electrical problem with the gauge circuitry. Something changed dramatically after removal of the A/C unit. Thermostat wouldn't go bad at the same time. Bad ground somewhere? Bad sending unit (is it connected) or instrument regulator? I've seen this on my car. The gauge appeared to read correctly as the temp came up, but then never stopped. I had the wrong wire connected to the gauge.
Ray, check and re-seat the wires coming off the gauge....there should be a Green/black coming from the regulator to one side of the gage, and a green/blue on the other make sure these are tight (someone will correct me if this is wrong).

Hey here's one out in left field: the car is VERY low on motor oil!

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Mike: Great idea; lets start with Ray's missing fan(s). How much a ticket?
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Hey, I wonder if we could run an on-line raffle, sell tickets? I have some stuff on the shelf I could contribute.

Mike Frank

Mike:
I'm just trying to help Pascal make the site more interesting. If this catches on maybe it can be a JCNA fund raiser - rather give them a cut than government.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

I'd never bet on these cars...especially when they've been creatively rearranged!

Mike Frank