D07 C13 Judge guide forum

I think its clear we have to judge the carpets underneath the mats regardless of whether we choose to judge or not judge mats.

I also think if we had clear information on which cars, years, models, etc came with which mats, overlay mats, special wool rugs etc, it would be a far easier question to solve.

The problem as I see it now, is that this information either does not exist, as Bob H asserts, or has not been assembled and concentrated in one place, which is what I am attempting to do, but only for the car I am familiar most with, the XJ40. Bob A I copied you on my initial emails regarding this judging guide and I am still very interested in documenting your car at some point, as both a high scoring car and a car owned by its original owner, as well as counting on your assistance in compiling the guide. I will unfortunately not make the SDJC show this year if its changed to Aug 14 due to a schedule conflict, but if it happens Aug 7th I will be there.

Back on subject, my personal preference , at least on XJ40, is to avoid judging mats, because of the dealer prep nature of the item. Many dealers could easily remove one type of mat, replace with another, and the buyer would never know the difference. Much like chromed wheels , leapers, and some of the other items we dont penalize for, across the same year range, avoiding penalizing or judging mats is just the easiest course of action.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

>

Now why could I not have written it so eloquently. My point exactly.

Bob.
85 XJ6/VDP
86 AJ6/Soevereign
87 V-12 VDP
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

The question of judging floor mats supplied as standard equipment on certain XJ40 midels has amused me since I started showing my 89 Vanden Plas several years ago. I bought the car new and it came equipped with "artificial goat skin floor mats" overlaid on the carpets in all but the driver side footwells. I always showed the car with the mats in the footwells, and, perhaps, 6 out of ten judges would "suggest" that they be removed. I would point out out that they were part of the VDP package and should be judged, but I also removed them to show the catpets which were in better condition that the mats, anyhow.

The artificial goatskin floor mats are listed in the supplemental owner's manual for the Vanden Plas along with all of the other embellishments that made an XJ6 into a VDP. This, to me, says they are a point of authenticity and should be judged for C&C and, if missing, should receive a deduction as "missing or non-authentic".

This leaves only the question of how they should be displayed: in the footwells or outside the car adjacent to the doors. If Daniel's assertion that the only reason an entrant would want the mats to be in their intended location,i.e.: in the footwells, is to hide the poor condition of the carpets, then they should be displayed outside the car. But, either inside or out, they should be judged. Whether the condition of the carpets under the mats should be judged is another question.

Bob Anderson
89 XJ40 VDP
72 E-Type 2+2

First you ask me to leave and then you want to perpetuate the discussion, which is it. I never gave false information you disseminated what I had said incorrectly and them blame me for your error.

American cars don't have to take the floor mats out. They are required to take the overlay mats out if so fitted because the cars were never factory fitted with them in the first place. All the overlay mats on these cars came as an extra in sealed bags stored the boot of the car. On the other side of the coin, the Canadian 92 came with the overlay mats fitted precisely in place. I should not have to remove them because that is the way the car came from the factory. There is nothing wrong with my carpets underneath them, as proven with my scores from last year. This is just a matter of principle. In addition the Canadian winter package was "never" made available to American consumers because Jaguar USA would not purchase the cars so equiped. CanÆt say if this policy was continued through the XJ40 range but it was the case right up to the end of the series III cars.

FWIW. It consisted of bonnet mounted washers which use the under bonnet engine temps to prevent them from freezing. Mud flaps. Wheel well mounted reservoir which used the heat from the radiator over flow tank to stop the washer fluid from freezing and either a block heater as installed on the Sovereign or a heater installed in the coolant hose as used on the V-12 VDP. The V-12 also got the headlight washer wiper sets.

You are also right the XJ12 designation was resurrected with the XJ40 cars. However I thought I made it clear that my comments were referring to the series III cars.

Can I leave nowà.
Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

Thank you,

I have just noticed in the past that you tend to be a little overly sensitive about what you percieve as the US centric nature of our club and judging. You supplement that attitude with incorrect perceptions and information, such as, that US cars do not have to have their mats removed for judging ( not true), or that the XJ12 designator was not used after 1979 ( 1994-1997 XJ12s certainly do exist in the USA but Ill assume you dont include these later cars in your statement) or that you think the winter package could ever be deducted for ( they sell this in Michigan, New York, New England and a dozen other US states, its not at all unusual!.

Its okay to disagree with convention, I just think one should back their argument with correct information, instead of simply a bad experience or two with a given club or set of judges which is what it seems you have done. We are just trying to make it better. I know someone is working on a Series III guide. I would strongly urge you to join thier panel ( I have a half dozen people from all over consulting on the XJ40 guide and expect to have 20 when all is said and done). Help with the guide and you will get everything you ask for.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

>

Sorry Daniel I did not mean to crash your XJ40 party. I will leave now suitably berated, my hand being slapped appropriately with head hung humbly and tail between my legs.

Bob.

92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

>

Well that made the most interesting reading. I believe that very effectively eliminates my car from competition in the States in 2006. I counted a deduction of 25 points for my car before I gave up counting. Everything from the special piping on my seats to the windshield washers onwards. Also puts a lot of other Canadian cars in jeopardy as well. Fact is there are no documents to substantiate the authenticity of a 92 V-12 VDP Jaguar. Only a 100 of them were ever built and I guess Jaguar did not see the necessity to print a book detailing how special these car were. Come to think of it, I also don't remember ever seeing a book that covers the winter package nearly every Canadian car came with either. So all the items I light heatedly mentioned in my last post could conceivably be judged as non-authentic.

Please note that I also continue to use the term V-12 VDP and that is because the XJ12 designation so fondly used by JCNA did not exist after 1979, and even then North America only saw a very limited number of them come over. They were in actual fact a base line car devoid of all the niceties. All North American series III cars imported since then were either V-12 VDP's or a very few Daimler double sixes. Continuing to call them all XJ12's is like totally ignoring the difference between an American version of the XJ6 and a XJ6/VDP.

Bob.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

In any case your comments are not relevant in this thread, as your car competes in a different class. I would appreciate if you tried not to side track the purpose of this forum, which is to assist in the maintenance of an XJ40 judges guide.

I understand you have had this argument before in other forums, I suggest you take it there, successfully or unsuccessfully, because it serves no purpose on an XJ40 thread!

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Youre most definitely mistaken Bob, American cars are required to remove mats to be judged. All cars are requested to have all floor mats removed for judging of the under carpets only. If that is not happening at the shows you attend, you should take it up with the rules committe, it has been a requirement at all shows I have attended for the last two years.

My original post may have not been completely clear on the subject, but I agree with Dick 100% on this, and its been my experience that its being applied consistently and fairly across the board. The only reason an entrant could have to want thier floor mats to be judged would, in my estimation, be in place of their underlying carpets which could be soiled or damaged. I know if my mats were judged and not removed I would score very highly, as I have a brand new $200 set of factory mats, but my under carpet is original and not perfect. I dont have a problem with the current standard.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

>>"Floor Mats and Seat Covers

Factory and after-market floor mats and seat covers ARE NOT judged. Carpets and primary seat coverings ARE judged. Entrants should remove all floor mats and seat covers in order for the judges to examine the authenticity, condition and cleanliness of the carpeting and seats."

Tends to make a mockery out of the claim that cars are judged on their authenticity. The 92 V-12 VDP Jaguars are in actual fact Daimler Double sixes badged as a Jaguars. They were all built at the Daimler factory with full Daimler trim and they all came with these overlay carpets in place. In other words you could not buy one of these cars without the carpets. To remove them for judging my car no longer represents how it came from the factory and therefore violates any authenticity rule. (I also checked and Daimlers in Europe are judged with them in place because that is how they came). It is also a pain in the neck keep having to remove them and them reinstall them, which is not such an easy task when done properly.
Stand your ground on this by all means, you guys set the rules but donÆt claim it to be for authenticity reasons it simply is not.

Bob.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

Youre most definitely mistaken Bob, American cars are required to remove mats to be judged. All cars are requested to have all floor mats removed for judging of the under carpets only. If that is not happening at the shows you attend, you should take it up with the rules committe, it has been a requirement at all shows I have attended for the last two years.

My original post may have not been completely clear on the subject, but I agree with Dick 100% on this, and its been my experience that its being applied consistently and fairly across the board. The only reason an entrant could have to want thier floor mats to be judged would, in my estimation, be in place of their underlying carpets which could be soiled or damaged. I know if my mats were judged and not removed I would score very highly, as I have a brand new $200 set of factory mats, but my under carpet is original and not perfect. I dont have a problem with the current standard.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

For definitive information regarding judging floor mats and seat covers, please see Chapter IV, Page 2, G-3 of the JCNA Concours Rule Book Edition 8.1 or 8.2 which states:

"Floor Mats and Seat Covers
Factory and after-market floor mats and seat covers ARE NOT judged. Carpets and primary seat coverings ARE judged. Entrants should remove all floor mats and seat covers in order for the judges to examine the authenticity, condition and cleanliness of the carpeting and seats."

No need to predict what the next thing might be, please read what the "next thing" will be in the Chapter VI, in the Concours Section of this web site. It was just approved at the AGM and will become effective on January 1, 2006.

Dick Cavicke
JCNA, JCRC

I my recollection the fleecy overlay floor mats were always supplied in a bag in the boot with all the Series III XJ6/VDP that came to the States and so in that case the car should be judged with the mats out so the original mats can be judged. However my car in particular, the 92 Canadian limited edition series III V-12 VDP came with them already installed in the car and the car should be judged that way. The American cars are not requested to remove their original floor mats to see what is underneath them and therefore the Canadian cars should not be require to have their original mats removed either. Next thing will be that whatever is not standard on an American car will have to be removed for judging from a Canadian car. Mud flaps, hood mounted windshield washers, the coolant heater cord and the headlight washer wiper sets.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

I have seen the issue with the floor mats also on some Majestics, which came with thick wool throw rugs as well. US VDPs supposedly also came with the thick wool mats. I believe that the judges have tried to keep things simple by not judging all floor mats across the entire range, because its so hard for them to determine if a car had them originally or not. Hence the need for a judges guide. I even had the owner of a VDP recently insist that my car should have been equipped with wool throw rugs also, but I find no evidence that this is the case, so there is a lot of bad information out there floating around.

I would think , however, that not having your floor mats judged would be a good thing, because that only adds the potential for deductions, since the underlying carpet must also be judged no matter if the car has floor mats or not, so simply leaving in the floor mats to cover up damage to underlying carpet does not help either, as a judge can and must ask for your mats to be removed.

So unless you had just absolutely perfect mats, you really dont want them judged anyway right?

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1994 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Should you need information on the 1992 Majestic, please contact me offline. In response to Bobs concern about a "universal" specs on the cars, he is 100% correct. Remember the phrase "beleive 1/2 of what you see"....that is correct on these cars.

The Majestic, while it was "supposed" to be a NO OPRIONS (ALL OPTIONS) car....the dealer and factory didnt always head this rule. Many things were subject to "dealer" discrestion.

I will be glad to assist you in this model should you need further info.

Jeff Kimball
1992 Majestic (2004 National Winner)
1988 XJ-S V-12

I agree with Bob about the fact that the floor mats should be judged in place if the car is a Canadian model.

I'm glad to see Dan that you're taking on this project for the XJ40 models.

I've done a great deal of work on Series III XJ6s over the years and recently purchased a 1992 XJ40 Sovereign and as I'm sure you are well aware, these are VERY DIFFERENT from an XJ6!!

Good luck.

UPDATE, 4/10/05

I am now midway or more through the accumulation process for documentation. I currently have sales literature for all years, 1988 through 1994 with the exception of 1993. I also have upholstery and color guides for most of the years, Nigel Thorley's "Jaguar, all the Cars", and a couple of misc technical books.

Another step for me personally was to undergo the JCNA judges training course, which I completed this weekend. I will begin judging car in May and will qualify as a judge by the end of this season. I expect that should help further educate me on the intracacies of judging.

At the concours I attend this season, I will be searching out well prepared XJ40s for photographing. I will offer photo credits to those who agree to participate in the process. My intent is to photo document as much areas pertaining to authenticity as possible.

At present I have only begun drafting a few sections of the actual guide. I would say I am maybe 10% complete. I intend to gather more information during the season, completing the guide in time for submittal to the next AGM in spring 2006. If anyone has any assistance or comments for me, or can fill any holes literature wise, I would very much appreciate a post here.

Thank you,

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

UPDATE, 4/10/05

I am now midway or more through the accumulation process for documentation. I currently have sales literature for all years, 1988 through 1994 with the exception of 1993. I also have upholstery and color guides for most of the years, Nigel Thorley's "Jaguar, all the Cars", and a couple of misc technical books.

Another step for me personally was to undergo the JCNA judges training course, which I completed this weekend. I will begin judging car in May and will qualify as a judge by the end of this season. I expect that should help further educate me on the intracacies of judging.

At the concours I attend this season, I will be searching out well prepared XJ40s for photographing. I will offer photo credits to those who agree to participate in the process. My intent is to photo document as much areas pertaining to authenticity as possible.

At present I have only begun drafting a few sections of the actual guide. I would say I am maybe 10% complete. I intend to gather more information during the season, completing the guide in time for submittal to the next AGM in spring 2006. If anyone has any assistance or comments for me, or can fill any holes literature wise, I would very much appreciate a post here.

Thank you,

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Your point is taken and we do not want to exclude Canadian variants from the mix if they exist. Perhaps you can suggest some people who would be willing to assist us where possible, in determining the differences.

I was under the impression that aside from a few emissions items, most of which are not judged in either class, that there are no longer major differences between US and Canadian cars. We will not be taking into account UK cars or other overseas cars in our efforts, its just not worth the effort for the two or three right hand drive grey market cars that might be hiding out there.

The guide we will be working on does not include Series III cars, but if I may make a suggestion, one of the reasons I was prompted to start work on this guide was the fact I was unhappy with the way the class was being judged. I found significant inconsistency, a lack of education, and general apathy. I think you feel the same way , judging by some of your posts. I found the best way to help fix the situation was to volunteer my time and money to actively fix the problem. I see no Series III judging guide. Perhaps you could help work on one. Perhaps you would come up with a Canadian variant for Series III that could be added to a future judging guide. Just a suggestion.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

>>>>We need all the official US sales brochures for the various Jaguar sedans 1988 through 1997. If there are any clubs who would be willing to donate these items if they have them, please forward let me know.

Could I respectfully point out to you fellows that these cars were sold in other parts of the world as well as in the US. If you are expecting your judging guides to be in any way universally representative of this model you should be prepared to take this into serious consideration.

This happens to be one of my major gripes when I showed my series III VDP V-12 in the States.(It is not an XJ12 as the JCNA concours classes D06 and C13 designates it as) Very few of the judges down there even recognized that there were some major differences between Canadian and American models. Because my car had features on it that they had never seen, they wanted to judge them as aftermarket items.

Another of my pet gripes is that my car came already fitted with the plush interior carpets that the concours rules now insist I remove when the car is being judged. It came with them in place, it should be judged with them in place. (Unlike the American XJ6 VDP's that had them supplied in bags stored in the boot). I have all the literature to support this as fact.

Bob.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry.

First request from the panel. We need all the official US sales brochures for the various Jaguar sedans 1988 through 1997. If there are any clubs who would be willing to donate these items if they have them, please forward let me know.

In the meantime I am bidding on those years on ebay to try and assemble a complete reference collection of factory sales brochures, color and upholstery brochures.
Thank you for your assistance.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze