Driven Class

I agree 100%. getting a first or second plac trophy when you have 1 or 2 cars in class is totally pointless. It's happened to me before and frankly I got tired of answering "yeah but I was alone in class".

It's obvious about 1a and 1b, but even 6 cyl E-types could be put together because of the similarities... yes it would make for a big class, so what? the XJS class is big...

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

I'm going to join Pascal in the "maybe it's just me" category. I'll probably tick a few people off with these comments. So be it.

Personally, I think we already have far too many classes. The last time I counted you could theoretically have 90 cars in a concours and everyone would win a trophy. This proposal would add three more. Currently you could have 30 cars at a concours (a decent-sized one at that) and everyone could conceivably walk home with a First Place trophy. I would just once like to attend a concours where there was sufficient competition that there was a chance I wouldn't win a trophy! I'm sure there are a lot of people who like to puff out their chests with pride and announce that they took first place at the prestigious Peeples Valley Concours d'Elegance, but it rings hollow when you find they were the only car in the class.

The reasons for each new class sound convincing. We have class 1a and 1b because it isn't fair that the DHCs should have to compete with the FHCs that have less to deduct, even though I doubt that half the concours have one of either class present. We have a special interest championship class so those people wouldn't feel left out. We have a preservation class so people who had "original" cars would have to compete with the "restored" cars, even though there is no way to determine if "original" is, in fact, an older restoration.

Let's carry that logic out. What about the racers? Is it fair that they don't have a driven class? Terry Larson drives his competition cars all the time and has the stone chips and splattered bugs to prove it. How about preservation? Surely there are some nice, driven, unrestored cars out there who don't have a home in championship. Why are championship classes 1-4 lumped together in one driven class? Why don't we split all the classes from 2 through 7 into A's and B's?

As we keep splitting classes for each group that feels slighted because it isn't fair that their car has to compete with some other model we will eventually end up with a hundred classes and no competition whatsoever.

This sounds to me like under-8 youth sports where everyone gets a trophy because they don't want to hurt anyone's self-esteem. C'mon, we're adults, surely we can walk away from a concours empty handed every once in a while. We all only have so much shelf space and if people want trophies that badly, you can buy them from those who have run out of shelf space -- on eBay.

"But then you haven't earned them," I hear you say. If everyone at a concours (or at the end of an under-8 soccer tournament) receives a trophy is it earned?

The only reason to even consider adding a class, IMO, is if there is sufficient interest in that class to generate an average of three entries per show over a year. Personally, I'd like to see classes that don't generate an average of two entries per show over a year consolidated with a similar class, but I'm not holding my breath for that one.

So, rather than argue the philosphy of adding a class, I say "Show me the cars!" Demonstrate to me that there will be enough entries to fill a class (3) on average per concours over the course of a year, and then I'll debate the philosphy of whether the purpose of JCNA is to maintain cars as they left the factory, or to encourage "personalization."

OK, perhaps more than a few of you are ticked off. ;-)

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

I see the following from the AGM section of the JCNA web site regarding my proposal to add a Modified and Special Interest Class to Driven:

"Item 2 q) Concours Judge Manual Section 3, Driven Division Classes – JC of Tulsa

Additional Class

It is proposed to add a Class D11: Modified and Special Interest

Secretary’s Note: Unless otherwise amended, this measure will be effective upon adoption by a majority vote at the AGM"

It is marked in yellow, which means it is referred to committee. Can someone explain the process from this point on? When does the committee meet and if they decide the proposal has merit, what next?

Regards, John

Pascal,
The proposal I have submitted for the AGM is strictly a fairness issue. One of our club members asked me why he would'nt receive a regional Driven award. At the time, I did not realize that regional awards were not presented in the Driven division. And I asked myself, "why not". So my motivation for this proposal is only to do what is fair. I have nothing persoal to gain because I compete in the Championship division. The proposal for a modified class in Driven is also an excellent idea. What's good for Championship is good for Driven. The rules need to be consistent.

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

William

There are 2 proposals on the table to expand the driven class. One is proposed by the Tulsa Ok Club to indeed add a moified driven class. The other one by Mike Fulton of the Carolina club is to give regional awards to driven class competitors.

They don't detract or take away from Champion classes, they just ackowledge that some don't want to go all the way...

This will be presented to delegates at the AGM, now is a good time to talk to you club delegates and make sure they listen to club members opinions...

As to the fun factor, well I'm am new to all this ( 4 years only ) but I've learned quite a few things. Concours can be fun or it can be formal and dull. I prefer it to be fun so that everyone can have a good time. It's interesting to see a perfect trailer queen but there is plenty of room for real drivers too !

last year, our club (south florida JC) decided to work on making our annual concours fun and it turned out to be the best, if not ever at least in a while. Key was to find a good location and to hold the award dinner right after the show at a casual outdoor restaurant. Far more fun than being stuck in some formal hotel ballroom...

it worked for us...

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

I agree that a "coach" assigned to a new member is a good idea. We did that a few years ago, but it has apparently been dropped. As far as the first-time show entrant goes, assigning a coach on the day of the show is really too late unless that coach has nothing else to do. Also, if there are touch up problems and incorrect parts, then the day of the show is too late.

What is needed is some tiny indication or effort on the new member's part to let someone know that he is interested in showing or improving his car. We cannot read minds. This will take nothing short of the coach actually going over to that person's house to see the car and to make suggestions....and that would be alright with me. We have held tech sessions months before concours on how to prepare a car for a show, but the turnout usually yields very few new folks. And those that do show up at these tech sessions usually never make it to concours.

Perhaps folks like John could take it upon themselves to develop a special interest group of driven class members within the club, and contact each to find out if they are interested in showing and/or improving their vehicles. ;-)

Patrick McLoad

Doug wrote: "Some people are nervous about showing their car....just as some are nervous about thier first slalom run. They don't know what to expect, are afraid of being embarassed. Each club should have a coach to help newbies with their first showing....explain what to do, where to go, what to expect, sort of "walk them thru" their first show. Show 'em that's it's FUN and take the drama out of the situation. Make sure the judges know the "first timer" cars/owners so they can spend a little extra time explaining things to him/her. Get 'em thru the first show or two and they'll be hooked for life."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Excellent suggestion Doug. I entered my first concours and turned in my JCNA membership application the same day. I had owned the car for about 3 months. Entered in JCOH's "Club Class", our term at the time for display. I had no idea what I needed to do or what to expect. Other entrants noticed this and were soon offering me tips and supplies. One member in particular (thanks Earl) was an invaluable source of help. Informal local shows (like the ones Pascal's club holds) could present a good opportunity to acclimate first timers to the process.

Regards, John

A few thoughts and observations in no particular order.....

First, we need to make sure that by encouraging more Driven Class entrants that we don't inadvertantly *discourage* display-only cars. After all, having more cars on the field....even in display-only....adds to the enjoyment for all. As it is, Driven Class entrants are often relegated to "also attended" status.....let's not encourage concours participation to the point where, if one chooses not to compete, he is looked down upon.

Let's say the number of entries into Driven *does* increase. Who is gonna judge them? From my own observations after 3 or 4 years of this is that, all too often, the judging teams are usually hard pressed to handle the all the cars that DO enter.....

Start downplaying the fact that there is competition between the cars and play-up the "be in competition with yourself" angle. Some people don't like competition....especially competition with their friends. To a large degree (no, not 100%, but let's say 95%) I could care less what the other guy scores with his car. I'm in competition with myself to *improve my own car*. It keeps me smiling and happy at each concours. :-) I advocate concours particiapation as "the best way to ensure that your Jag is keep in great condition." It *forces* you to take care of your car !

In fact.....and here's an angle you may want to give some thought to....the MOST meaningful award I have ever rec'd came at the end of last season when our chief judge awarded me the "Most Improved" trophy. I was VERY happy to have be honored with that. My Jag is a *true* daily driver with 120K miles and at my first show (three years ago?) I earned a 9.3xx. I finished last season with a 9.971 (or something like that) and was very happy that my hard work was seen by others as being noteworthy. Maybe JCNA should have some sort of formal recognition along these lines.

Some people are nervous about showing their car....just as some are nervous about thier first slalom run. They don't know what to expect, are afraid of being embarassed. Each club should have a coach to help newbies with their first showing....explain what to do, where to go, what to expect, sort of "walk them thru" their first show. Show 'em that's it's FUN and take the drama out of the situation. Make sure the judges know the "first timer" cars/owners so they can spend a little extra time explaining things to him/her. Get 'em thru the first show or two and they'll be hooked for life. I myself was very reluctant to compete in the beginning. Now I have bought an XJ-S as a daily driver just so I can spend more time improving on my old Ser III XJ6.....and move up to Championship.

My two cents....

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
JDRC/NWA

Good points, John. Give me some time to consider these.

Patrick

Daniel

I certainly think taht Concours is a big part of the club, both JCNA and local clubs. I both cases, this is were we see the largest turn out. Even the only time of the year we see some members.

Preserving Jaguar's heritage is an important part of JCNA ins't it ? Popular vote usually has noting to do with quality, originality, etc... it has to do about overall look and presentation... again, that's for the general British Car show...

we (SFJC) do organize non judged shows, at least 2 or 3 each year. that brings in 20 cars, 30 max. Never brings a car from the other FL clubs. On the other hand, our concours had 57 cars last november, probably 10 the other 2 clubs. total of 24 Champion, 15 Driven, 18 display.

tells me most members do care about the annual concours and the whole program.

if you look at most results from last year, you will find that the average concours had around 40 entrants, with Champion classes usually the largest group.

so, let's stay focus on what can be improved, no need to go crazy on us with wild ideas :-)

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal, Pascal......

What are we going to do with you?

What "towel" exactly are we throwing in here? Where is it written in car club lore that members of a club attending a club event have to have judgement passed on their car by others? Remember Mike Frank's comment about "elitism"? Has it occured to you that PERHAPS some club members, perhaps even a majority of them, would enjoy coming to a club organized Jaguar show just for harmless fun? Just for the camraderie? Just to hang around with other Jaguar lovers? You are right, popular vote and people's choice is harmless...... but maybe that's why the non-competitive among us enjoy it. Grey Poupon and stuffed Jaguars are corny, but lots of people actually enjoy that stuff (how many millions of dollars do they make off Elvis memorabilia?).

Ignore the people's choice or popular vote factor for the time being. Why did only 2 people from this club bother to sign up for JCNA Championship/Driven competition? And don't tell me its because there was a fee to register for the concours because I ain't buying it.

I get the impression from your reply that you are telling me JCNA is "about" concours. Is that what you believe? That this club is built around concours?

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Patrick: In response to your points:

Patrick wrote: "(1): So let me get this straight: let's allow incorrect wheels, tires, and radios? Then you will be happy because you are now competitive? Next year someone else wants to allow incorrect color schemes, door handles, and signal indicator lenses. Will that be okay with you? Exactly where do we stop with this? Actually, modified champ class should have never been voted in. If you want to modify your car, do it in the engine compartment and boot, and enter in Driven. You can't make non-authentic changes to your car and then complain that the judging rules don't allow you to do so. Many owners bring their car into compliance for the stretch of shows, and then revert back to the non-authentic gear for everyday driving."

Response: Ah, but I can. There is one class in Championship that does allow changes, so I can make "non'authentic" changes. All of the other Championship classes allow for no authenticity changes and so function to "preserve the marque" and allow the current owners to pass on the Jaguar legacy to future generations. Class C-16 caters to those who have made modifications for drivability, cosmetic reasons or whatever and would still like to participate in JCNA concours. I see nothing wrong in that and think it should be encouraged. I thought JCNA attempted to appeal to the broadest member base. If having a modified class in Championship anbd Driven attracts more participation I think it is a good move.

Patrick wrote: "(2) I would contend that the stature of Driven class is fine for 99% of most Driven owners. Yes, driven IS a second tier, but it's nothing disgraceful as the cars are still nice. Yes, those who cannot compete at Champ level are still given the option of competing in Driven; that's why it was formed. It is not an issue of "relegation" unless you believe it to be. Most owners of daily drivers will tell you that they DO NOT want to move to champ class because not only of the expense, but level of competition."

Response: I can't presume to speak for those who choose to show in Driven class. I am merely voicing my opinion and making suggestions on ways to promote additional interest in Driven class. The last time I looked at the rules Driven class cars had to meet the same judging criteria as Championship, with the obvious exception of the bonnet and boot. I believe the non-judging of the under-bonnet and boot is in place because it is virtuyally impossible to keep an engine compartment in pristine condition if the vehicle is used as it was meant to be used Assuming impartial judging, a Championship car that scored 100 points (sit them side by side with the boots and bonnets closed) should be just as good as a 10 point Driven class entry of the same model. I don't think it is a matter of can't compete in Championship as much as a matter not wanting to compete in championship. It should come as no surprise that many Jaguar owners do not consider the penultimate expression of ownership involves endless concern over engine compartment details and hours of worrying about the finish of a hose clamp. Does this make their cars second rate or second tier. I don't think so.

On a personal note, I have competed in both Driven and Championship since my wife and I bought the car. We have enjoyed every one we have attended, even the last one held outdoors in 50 degree weather in a steady drizzle, and will continue to participate. We choose to "restore" the car as a 99.5+ driver as opposed to a show car (note that I resisted saying trailer queen. :-) ). We could just as easily written a series of checks for a high grade Championship restoration but that was not our priority.

Patrick wrote: "Perhaps it is up to the local clubs to enhance the status of the Driven class (and owners) instead of looking for JCNA nat'l to do so. If the local clubs can't get their Driven-class cars out to even their hometown show, then there is little hope for the nat'l organization to have an affect."

Response: Some clubs are more effective in enticing members to participate than others. When I looked at individual concours for 2002 I found many instances where the Driven entries outnumbered the Championship cars. What is the secret those clubs know that others don't? Perhaps they would be willing to share their knowledge. I do disagree with the theory that if the local club can't get a decent turnout then the national organization has little hope of success. Rather than write the effort off as hopeless perhaps some creative thinking could have a positive effect.

Patrick wrote: "Respectfully, perhaps those who have run the gamut of Driven and Modified should take the next logical step to Champ class rather than inventing ways to avoid it. I think the number of folks who make the jump to Champ class is going to increase, and the class will become more highly competitive than it already is. Next will be suspension, component dates, and under the car judging just to tighten it up. Best to do it sooner than later!"

Response: Why is it essential to "progress" from Driven to Championship (note that the only Modified class currently available is already in Championship)? I would hate to see a reduction in driven and a resulting increase in Championship class entries. The changes you suggest can only reduce the number of people entering a concours. One outcome might be a handful of perfectly restored and prepared vehicles tracing a route from concours to concours in custon, climate-controlled trailers. I sincerely hope your crystal ball is tuned to the wrong channel.

Bottom line is I think JCNA should do whatever is necessary to appeal to the largest number of its members. Earlier in the Forums I remember seeing a long series of posts addressing ways to increase member participation. Why were classes C-17, C-19, D-9 and D-10 added? To include Jaguar owners who would otherwise have been excluded from concours participation. I would hope that JCNA continues to be responsive to it members.

Regards, John

I don't know.. what are they telling us ?

that given the choice they don't want to bother ? I think that's throwing in the towel. I'm guessing the club ( I think I know which one it is from the results ) "pushed" the popular choice entries.

Popular choice in really meaningless anyway... red OTS always have an edge along with little silly things like a stuffed Jaguar on the bonnet or grey poupon on picnic table... this is not what JCNA is about, most club partipate in British Car Shows which are all about popular votes, so that's covered there...

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

I'll take a shot at that one: you can't.

I offer this real-world example:

A JCNA affiliated Jaguar Club (which will remain nameless).
Membership stable at about 200
Been running concours for 25 years
Concours participation had been waning for several years, what to do?
Put in a new format for 2002:
Participants can enter Championship or Driven or...
they can enter a "popular vote" type format
spectators and a few celebrity guests get to decide the trophies
60 cars register for the event (up substantially from 2001)
2 club members enter Championship/Driven
8 non-club members enter Championship/Driven to get the points
the other 50 enter the popular vote contest
A good time is had by all.

Are JCNA members trying to tell us something?

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

No state of war exists as far as I know; this is simply a friendly debate over JCNA issues that have existed for a long time. My response was to John's initial posting and the agreements by others.

(1): So let me get this straight: let's allow incorrect wheels, tires, and radios? Then you will be happy because you are now competitive? Next year someone else wants to allow incorrect color schemes, door handles, and signal indicator lenses. Will that be okay with you? Exactly where do we stop with this? Actually, modified champ class should have never been voted in. If you want to modify your car, do it in the engine compartment and boot, and enter in Driven. You can't make non-authentic changes to your car and then complain that the judging rules don't allow you to do so. Many owners bring their car into compliance for the stretch of shows, and then revert back to the non-authentic gear for everyday driving.

(2) I would contend that the stature of Driven class is fine for 99% of most Driven owners. Yes, driven IS a second tier, but it's nothing disgraceful as the cars are still nice. Yes, those who cannot compete at Champ level are still given the option of competing in Driven; that's why it was formed. It is not an issue of "relegation" unless you believe it to be. Most owners of daily drivers will tell you that they DO NOT want to move to champ class because not only of the expense, but level of competition.

Perhaps it is up to the local clubs to enhance the status of the Driven class (and owners) instead of looking for JCNA nat'l to do so. If the local clubs can't get their Driven-class cars out to even their hometown show, then there is little hope for the nat'l organization to have an affect.

Respectfully, perhaps those who have run the gamut of Driven and Modified should take the next logical step to Champ class rather than inventing ways to avoid it. I think the number of folks who make the jump to Champ class is going to increase, and the class will become more highly competitive than it already is. Next will be suspension, component dates, and under the car judging just to tighten it up. Best to do it sooner than later!

P. McLoad

To answer Patrick's question I looked at the participants for each individual concours. It appears that, while there were more Championship entries the difference wasn't that great. When You look at the those who were ranked in the final standings for 2002 there were 78 listed in Championship compared to 28 in Driven. Clearly fewer owners of cars being entered in driven class are being motivated to make the three shows required for national ranking.

Frankly, I am amazed by the volume of the responses this topic has generated and somewhat dismayed by the tone of many of them. As I have tried to clearly state my intention was and is not to start a "war" between Championship and Driven class. Nor is my intention to substitute a set of "politically correct" labels for the current concours classes. My efforts were intended to addess an issue in hopes of at least stimulating constructive responses.

My ideas on how to increase participation in Driven class might be off the mark, but they were put forth in good faith. Nothing else I have read here offers any alternative suggestions. We have read in several posts what can't be done. Does anybody have any constructive ideas ragarding what can be done.

Regards, John

First, letÆs get something clear. There IS a big difference between a fully restored car, and one that is not (I donÆt think anyone is arguing that point). The owner makes the decision which of the two he will have. The owner also has a choice when installing radios, tires, and what not....either keep them at original specs, or change them for the sake of performance (or expense). So, to encourage those who do not want to enter the championship fray, the Driven class was formed.

It is obvious that the ideologies between these two types of owners will never mesh as each class has their pros and cons in regards to classic Jaguar restorations. I do not believe that continually splintering and diluting the classes to appease those with modifications is the answer. Either youÆre going to compete or not...you canÆt have it both ways.

If the question is about participation in local concours shows in the driven category, then there are several issues at play here (I know IÆm preaching to the choir). Most owners of driven vehicles either donÆt care about the authenticity or the condition of the car, or, are intimidated by those who DO care and keep their Jaguars in top condition, or, are under the misconception that a concours is only for show-condition cars despite our efforts to communicate the contrary, or, just donÆt want to take the time. There is nothing we can do for those who own classics with torn seats, leaky hydraulics, cracked paint, or non-running engines. Naturally, they wonÆt bring a car to a show. Assuming they care enough to be JCNA members, one can only hope they will take an interest in their car at some point in time. I would venture to guess that this type of owner makes up the majority in any JCNA club. (I might also add that these are lean times as many thousands have been laid off, the stock market remains down, and we are about to enter a war.) So by default, those who DO bring a driven car to a local concours are the exception. The judging criteria are qualitative and tangible.

But if the question is about national recognition, then thatÆs perceptual in nature and has to do with an ownerÆs ego. With all due respect, I donÆt think that playing word semantics between Champ and Driven is going to help. The division between the two types of vehicles will ALWAYS exist. Sure, easy for me to say because IÆm on the other side of the fence. But 20 years ago, I made the conscious decision to restore my car to the best of my ability. I had grown up going to car shows, and when I saw an incredibly restored car on display, I said ôthatÆs what I want to doö. It was and remains a hobby. So while many others have been driving and enjoying their E-types over the years, I chose a different path. I was patiently waiting for funds to have my engine restored, or a new set of wire wheels and Dunlop tires, or that Blaupunkt radio to get restored. IÆm not saying that one is better than the other...itÆs just a different class; oftentimes, the two cannot be compared side by side. And if IÆm not mistaken, the natÆl standings list these cars as ôCö or ôDö, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd without any other distinction.

With all due respect to those in the Driven class, there is nothing wrong with JCNA encouraging those on the cusp of having a champ car to take the effort to make it so. It is an incentive. I personally enjoy looking at an un-restored car as much as like looking at the restored brand. The fact that they are even at the show makes them winners in my book. But is often the case, these folks keep the bonnet locked down and in hiding. Am I for celebrating and publicizing the best in Driven class? Absolutely! However, how many have written articles about their cars, taken photographs, and submitted to the Journal for publication consideration?

IÆd hope that the liberal political correctness that has taken its toll on our nationÆs language, borders, and culture would not creep into JCNAÆs classification between Driven and Championship. If a carÆs boot and the bonnet are not judged, then it shouldnÆt enjoy the same distinction of those cars that are.

Respectfully,
P McLoad

PS: At this posting, I have not yet received my Jaguar Journal, so I canÆt address the issue raised by Mike Cook on driven entries. But out of 6,000 or so members, do we know how many driven entries there were as opposed to champ?

Allright, so I have a strange and sometimes dark sense of humor. Shoot me!

I apoligize if George thought my comments were out of line. All in good fun, I assure you! Let me take this opportunity to say that I think the the JCNA judging committee is doing a WONDERFUL job (capital letters). There's is surely a thankless task and I applaud them for having the guts to tackle it. Bravo!

Now, I'm not sure about a hug but I'll gladly buy the first round of beer in Charlotte (for the whole committee even!).

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

OK... Alakazam... :-)

Actually I enjoy a well preped Championship Class car and and appreciate the amount of sweat and effort that it took to get it there. I am not trying to address what Championship class is, or isn't, should be or shouldn't be.

I was trying to respond to the question in the Jaguar Journal regarding increasing participation in Driven Class. I thought that perhaps an attempt to enhance the status of Driven Class might attract more entrants.

Regards, John

Daniel:

That wasn't nice at all, You owe George a hug.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Pascal,

OK, try "Shazam", or how about "Abracadabra". Yeesh, you'd think you were from France or something.....

Take John's suggestion:

"Add a modified class to Driven (counterpart to C16) Many of us have very presentable Jaguars that are modified to the point of being uncompetitive in Driven class."

And add it to the list of proposals that are posted on the AGM page. Credit John as the author.

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George, George....

I like you too! I see you're on to our little plot to overthrow JCNA! How clever of you!

All kidding aside, please enlighten us dimwit "brainstormers". Give us in 50 words or less:

1) what's wrong with the present concours system that makes you call it "broken"
2) what you think it will take to fix it

Can I have a try? How about:

1) Disparity
2) education

Will we see you in Charlotte? Or are you sending Senator McCarthy in your place?

OK, OK that was a joke!

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Not sure what you mean Daniel... Alakazam ?

Maybe eveything is fine the way it is now... maybe not.... brainstorming never hurt... Personally, I don't care about a piece of tin and I am just as happy in display class. but if a number of members feel that driven class participants should be recognized at the regional level, why not listen?

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

There currently is a proposal in the works to add a modified class in the Driven division. It will require that the car have the documented 35 points to be eligible for modified the same as now required for C-16.

L D Young

Well now someone near the truth. Why not just give a national first to every car that shows up for any event. Our system is broken and you folks are not helping with all of these ideas. I like all of you. Now do we feel better. It is apout preserving the cars or restoring the cars to the CORRECT specs. Not about creating classes so everyone gets their name in some pub. or a trophy. When your car is judged the score is not you it is the CAR. If all of this crap is presented nothing will be done at the AGM. Or is that the plan? After 30 years in JCNA I can tell you some of these ideas will cause a split and there will be another started. We need to correct what we have not start another pipe dream.

George Camp

To make it a proposal, you just say "alakazam!" and Pascal will make it a proposal put forward by you.

I'm afraid I don't understand where you are headed with the Champion versus driven thing. You sound like you're anti-trailer queen. Are you saying you want to get into the situation where we need Arthur Anderson to audit the actual amount of mileage a car does every year? Champion is supposed to be (or has become, some would say unfortunately) a "perfection" class. Cars MUST be absolutely perfect to win top honors. Driving them means increasing the likelyhood of less than perfection so they aren't driven. I think it is rather sad actually. I admire those who really do drive their cars and show them in Championship, but I think they are the exception.

I read somewhere that one of the other clubs (Rolls Royce?) demands a lengthy driving test as part of the judging process. Cool!

The Austin-Healey Club does not have a point system or a 1st, 2nd, 3rd place system. Rather they have a Gold-Silver-Bronze system whereby certain point totals are equal to certain levels. It eliminates the "my car is better than your car" syndrome, replacing it with "we're all Gold winners".

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Thanks Daniel. Do I need to take any action to make it a proposal?

Increasing the stature of Driven Class? Some randor thoughts:

1. Maybe use trophys similar to what is used in "Championship" but with the designation "Championship Driven".

2. A lot of the the difference between Driven and Championship is perception. Only time will change that.

3. Change the name of Driven to make it on par, but different than Championship Class. If Driven is driven what is Championship? Non-Driven? Static? Those don't work. Perhaps they should be referred to as "Championship Driven" and Championship".

Regards, John

OK, Patrick. Why not? Once we put Regional trophies into Driven class just like they have in Championship class, then why not? We can have a regional version of the CC held on an annual basis, which will of course include Driven and... we can have the CC every two years where the best Driven division entrants from all the regions are invited to compete for the "Challenge Cup" of driven class!

Thanks for the idea!

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Daniel: If you're going to impose those conditions on Champ class, then JCNA would have to be politically correct by including Driven Class as well so that their owners wouldn't feel slighted or like 2nd class members....the very point that John makes. (By the way, I've seen John's car and it is immaculate!.)

Patrick McLoad

John,

I haven't received my copy of Jaguar Journal yet. I agree with your point in item #1 and I will suggest that Pascal enter it as a proposal in the AGM section of this website. It should come as a proposal from you.

You'll have to be more specific as it relates to enhancing the stature of Driven class. I believe the rule was originally put on the books to avoid a situation where a " near perfect" trailer queen car continuously entered in driven class in order to hog trophies when they should really be in Championship class. There is a proposal on the books for the 2003 AGM which will hopefully result in trophies being given for regional champions in Driven class. Any other suggestions on how to enhance the stature of Driven class?

I've got one but it is controversial: move Championship class competition to the biannual Challenge Championship and specific annual "regional" championships only! Shields up!

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120