JCNA Judging.

I wrote the post bewlow about 4 years ago, and it made it rounds through various individuals out west here, but apparently there are even more people now wanting to have this discussion, so I am posting it again. It is a bit stream of consciousness, so please try not to take offense. It may have been written a bit passionately, but with no malice intended to anyone...

My intention is to drive forward a debate about things that may improve Concours and thereby increase attendance and even, ultimately, membership. I think every one of us shares this desire.

I am intensely interested in any feedback you may be willing to provide, including rebuttal, redirection of my arguments, and additional ideas for reform.

Thank you in advance for your attention to this attachment, your patience with it, and your reply.
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Improving JCNA Concours Judging

OK, I donÔÇÖt put fingers to keys EVER, so all I can say is that something must need attention. I am not angry ÔÇô actually, wait, strike that - I AM angry. IÔÇÖm angry that it has come to this. I am angry that I have had to resort to typing out the equivalent of a 2-bit op-ed piece in order to move an issue forward which I have to believe must be on the minds of almost every dues-paying member of our organization.

Speaking of paying dues, I know this is a ÔÇ£clubÔÇØ. Here is where I stand on clubs in general.

I donÔÇÖt join many clubs.

I remember my buddy and I snuck into my high school gym on photo day and sat with the trig club, making a giant ÔÇ£LÔÇØ with our thumb and forefinger to our forehead. When other club members asked us what we were doing we said we had come up with a club ÔÇ£gang-signÔÇØ that was really an isosceles triangle. They bought it, and my buddy and I had a good laugh for 4 or 5 months after the year book came out and in the clubs section it showed 30 people making giant loser signs.

Suffice it to say, I abhor the notion of clubs. They have always reeked of elitism, and symbolized to me peopleÔÇÖs overt desperation to belong to something so bad that they sacrifice their own individualism and better judgment.

ÔÇ£I belong to a clubÔÇØ essentially says ÔÇ£you donÔÇÖt belongÔÇØ and that there must be something strange about you. Sort of a have and have-not type of dichotomy. Members turn the tables and say ÔÇ£we belong,ÔÇØ when in reality the majority is on the outside. Yeah, IÔÇÖm probably harboring some deep seated issues from my childhood, but who isnÔÇÖt right?

Nevertheless, I love what the JCNA is.

It is not a bowling club or an eating club or a wine lovers club. In those kinds of clubs you have essentially one outlet, and if you are not engaged in that one outlet, youre wasting your time. The JCNA seems to focus on one thing too  the Jaguar - but upon closer inspection

Much of North America has a romantic notion of the automobile. Hell, it helped us spread out across this continent, and continues to unite us back again. I have lived in almost every region of the US, and I know that so much of my history is tied to it.

Jaguars are cars, but they are also connected to so much of our human experience that it really is impossible to limit involvement in a car club to just the car.

I was intramural bowling champion in college, and if there is anyone out there who can say the same thing about bowling clubs, then I guess I just dont know what Ive been missing (and be sure to attend next weeks 51st Annual Bowling Concours DElegance & Chili Cook Off, held as it always is in the basement alley of Sys Half-Time Rec Center & Laundry Lounge).

JCNA is about diversity.

For every marque and model in JaguarÔÇÖs history, there is an equal matching individual and event. We have picnics, parties, tours, trips, meets and meetings. All races, creeds and rungs on the socio-economic ladder are well represented. People donÔÇÖt have to be involved in every activity, but activities that are offered are consistent and of the quality befitting the Jaguar name.

There is something for everyone, and there are ÔÇ£every onesÔÇØ at all things. You may unexpectedly see the Concours individual at a museum gathering, or surprised to see a rally car entered in Concours, and even people who never compete at all will come to a JCNA awards banquet.

We need to do everything we can to preserve and encourage this prideful part of our group.

We also need to fight the urge to blend all of the various elements of our club into one tasteless, homogenous glob.

This I why I am pleading for focus on an area of the JCNA that is so important to me, and which I think is currently suffering; the Concours DÔÇÖElegance.

- Challenge for current JCNA Concours -

OK, so I know it may be hard to connect the mad ravings above with where I am about to go, but bear with me

My opinion of the current challenge with Concours is really this; what is the purpose of the JCNA Concours DÔÇÖElegance?

My read of AGM minutes back to 1974, the various rules publications, judging guides, and my own gauge of Concours competition from the last 5 years says to me that the purpose is competition. Sounds simple enough, right? Ah-ha, not so

Main Entry: conÔÇócours d'eÔÇóleÔÇógance
Pronunciation: (?î)k?ìÔü?-?îku?çr-?îd?ü-l?ü-?êg?ñÔü?s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural conÔÇócours d'eÔÇóleÔÇógancesame or -?îku?çrz-?îd?ü-
Etymology: French concours d'?®l?®gance, literally, competition of elegance
Date: 1950
: a show or contest of vehicles and accessories in which the entries are judged chiefly on excellence of appearance and turnout

Definition for contest
ÔÇó contest: an activity in which people try to win something or do better than others
Encarta World English Dictionary

OK, so weÔÇÖve got our fancy definitions out of the way. So what, right?

This is a club, and we want to be inclusive, we want to have fun, we all want to get along, etc.

I donÔÇÖt think people really have a grasp of the difficulties with reconciling this attitude with the essence of competition.

I do.

I want to have fun at Concours as well.

There is no greater joy than busting your butt preparing a car and paying money to have people tell you what is wrong with your car. ItÔÇÖs a sick kind of fun, but there are a lot of "sick" people in our organization.

Temper all of this with the similar joy of watching peopleÔÇÖs eyes bug out when they see this car, and they are reminded of a time, or a person, or a place or just an essence of something that connects ÔÇô that moment of connection is priceless. And you did that to them, for them, with them - because there is a connection for you as well. You put all this together, this was your idea, this is your presentation; this car speaks to you as well.

Norman Dewis looked over one of my cars once and said to me, ÔÇ£Mike, all I can tell you is, they never left the factory looking this good.ÔÇØ I could have melted away at that moment. We all have similar stories.

I want my car to be better than yours, and thatÔÇÖs OK.

But I also want your car to be there, I want you to be there.

And I want you to think your car is better than mine as well (even though its not). Thats competition, dammit. And if you dont show up thinking you can beat me, dont show up at all.

First show I ever went to I brought a 3.8s I had. I was nervous as hell, and it felt good.

I parked next to Glenn Simpson. Glenn had brought about 7 cars, had a whole team of people detailing and prepping, and he was working away on a similar 3.8s.

We acknowledged each other, but before I even had a chance to introduce myself Glenn walks up and tells me, you got the wrong radiator, thats a MK II radiator on your car

Nice to meet you, too

But Glenn gets it. ThatÔÇÖs what this is about. ItÔÇÖs a competition. For some of us, itÔÇÖs the only competitive activity we engage in. HeÔÇÖs not being rude or mean, heÔÇÖs telling it like it is, and we should be happy to take that.

Someday, I thought, I wanted to be able to do that to somebody else. Because in that moment he told me that he lit the fire in me. I poured over books and guides and pictures - and made my cars better. IÔÇÖm still trying to make my cars better.

So, is the Concours DÔÇÖElegance about having fun or about competition?

It is possible to have both, yes it is.

But I think where we are headed actually will actually compromise both.

It boils down to

1. too many 100 point scores
2. lack of consistency in JCNA judging

I own several Jaguars which are consistently JCNA National award winners, and the current system actually benefits entrants like me. So do not assume that I am doing this for the benefit of any single individual. I care about the good of the members of the entire club, and I want as many members there as possible.

There are some outstanding cars throughout North America. But ask any person who owns a 100 point car if the car is really perfect and their answer will be a resounding ÔÇ£No!ÔÇØ

If they realize this, why canÔÇÖt all of us?

Give me 30 seconds with any car on the planet and I can find a flaw. They are machines made by humans and so, by their very nature, imperfect. Last time I checked, thatÔÇÖs not what 100 points means.

We donÔÇÖt assign 100 points to the best car that shows up, the best presented car, or even the best car weÔÇÖve ever seen. You assign a perfect score to a car that is perfect. I defy anyone to show me one of those, I could take it apart.

But that shouldnt be a surprise, since each of their owners could do so as well

When Nadia Comaneci scored a perfect 10 at the Olympics, no one had ever done it before (she went on to do it 7 times!). Once the bar is set that high (no pun intended), you could no longer get it back.

Perfect scores got handed out so frequently they had to revise the whole system.

The effect of 100 point scores is 2-fold.

1. It promotes a "winner take all" philosophy which devalues other cars and discourages competition
2. It decreases attendance

First of all, the 100 point cars are almost always the same cars.

Let me explain something to you. I donÔÇÖt care if you have a team of 100 people working on you car up until the final second before judging, you donÔÇÖt have a 100 point car.

But what is even more frustrating is trying to convince anyone that a car could go to 3 shows at 3 different venues on 3 different dates in one year and receive 3 perfect 100 point scores.

Who are we trying to kid?

I am flabbergasted looking at Concours results where 16 cars show up and 8 of them get a perfect 100 points. What do they put in the water there? I want some of that

Now, follow this through. If you have a competitive car, and you are consistently improving your car, and year after year you see the same individual(s) getting perfect scores somewhere else across the country, whatÔÇÖs the incentive? There is no national award, since the best cars donÔÇÖt meet to compete (an idea that apparently has been discussed for years). And you donÔÇÖt get the same judges they do.

And are we saying that the 100 point car doesnÔÇÖt need anything? Every one of those owners takes their car home and works on it, improves it. So what, do they get 102 points next time?

People that bring their cars to Concours need to understand they are coming into the lionÔÇÖs den, but that doesnÔÇÖt mean they canÔÇÖt tame the lion - happens all the time.

I love the people that come out first time and get a great score just as much as people like me, who got low scores first time out and through hard work brought the score up (my first show with my 420G I was the only car in my class and I still did not get a 1st place trophy because I only got 88 points ÔÇô I love that).

Concours is competition. If you donÔÇÖt like hearing what is wrong with your car, or why another car is better than yours, by all means engage in the plethora of other activities JCNA has to offer.

I have been a little embarrassed in the past with some of the high scores I have received.

But I am even more embarrassed when I find myself fighting for hundredths of a point to keep up with someone else 3000 miles away. Not because I think my car is perfect, but because I have little to no faith that the judging standards are consistent throughout the various regions.

IÔÇÖm not accusing anyone of anything. I donÔÇÖt think anyone sets out to take advantage of the system.

But if we are a national club we need to act like it. It is time for us to be grown ups and admit that there is inequity and then, instead of shrugging our shoulders, do something to right it.

Those of you who grumble that each club should be autonomous outside of the purview of JCNA can get up and leave the room now, but leave the JCNA designation at the door because you dont play well with others and there is no fruit cup for you You want to play with the big dogs you have to be big dogs.

- Improving the Current JCNA System -

I donÔÇÖt want to exclude past winners, I donÔÇÖt want to handicap anyone, and I donÔÇÖt want a national meet between all the winners. What I want is for cars to be judged accurately and consistently across classes, divisions, regions and individuals. I know we can do it.

And we donÔÇÖt need to chuck the whole system.

I think on paper the JCNA scoring system and judging guides provide one of best sets of rules we could have. It is in implementation of this system I think where there are a number of difficulties.

People have spent hundreds of hours working and reworking the judging criteria, listening to members and making improvements. The least we could do to show our appreciation is use that which they have given us - consistently and accurately.

Every car has deductions. If we just mark them off we will do so much more to help keep the Concours fair and competitive.

I know we want to be nice to people who have worked so hard on there cars, but everyone works hard on their cars, so thatÔÇÖs beside the point.

DonÔÇÖt give out perfect scores like they are lollipops at the doctorÔÇÖs office. You insult yourself, the car owner, and fellow entrants and club members all over North America. ItÔÇÖs almost like you are admitting you donÔÇÖt know what you are doing.

I would also suggest that any car which garners higher than a score of 99.95 (or 9.95 for driven) be immediately remanded to the head judge at each Concours for verification.

The judge can then do a 5 minute walk-around the car, ask for a re-judging from the same judges, or simply sign off on the score without doing anything.

Critics can say this would delay scoring and awards, embarrass judges, the club, or the car owner. I maintain that this would actually help motivate judges to find the proper deductions in the first place, thereby negating the need for the chief judge to be involved at all.

Moreover, on a 99.95 we are talking a total deduction of .5 of a point for 3 judges in total. If thats all the deductions they can find on 1 car after 15 minutes they should be embarrassed

Entrants with higher scores will not be offended if their scores drop a little bit, as long as everyone is being judged fairly.

And I think that ultimately you will see higher attendance at the Concours. It will no longer be a situation where the same cars win by huge margins all the time. Scores will be more within a range that is actually realistic from show to show, opening up the possibility that different cars in different regions can achieve a spot for a regional or national award. Putting it bluntly; making Concours more competitive will make it more fun, which will make it more popular, which will make it more attended ÔÇô simple.

Addendum to above rant:

I respect the judges. They have a tough job.

They are required to show up early, most of the time they have their own car to prepare, sit through an early morning meeting, judge sometimes as many as a dozen cars, and put up with pushy entrants who are often times rude, argumentative and unappreciative of their efforts.

That being said, a vast majority of the judges are not what any of us would term ÔÇ£expertsÔÇØ on the cars that they judge.

This is completely understandable. The number of nuances they need to know is, quite frankly; numbing. We all get this.

But why then is there not more dialogue between judges and entrants?

Most entrants have put more time and energy into learning about their Jaguars than a whole judging team will in their combined lifetimes. We are not there putting our cars under the microscope because we are idiots. We do so because we share the love of the marque, and want to share that with others.

I have not found a rule which states judges can not ask questions.

I see the rule which states entrants may not unfairly influence judges. Sharing thoughts on items of which a judge may not be certain is not unfair, but is in actuality quite fair, since it helps to ensure that proper deductions and scores will be ultimately arrived upon.

If judges suffer from an insecurity complex about showing their ignorance, then they should not be judges (the wise man admits he knows nothing, so to speak).

Secondly, if we are to grow up and get really serious about JCNA Concours, maybe we need a judging circuit, like umpires. They could travel within each region. Maybe JCNA could aid them wit a stipend for travel.

Or maybe some kind of judging overlords (like Dick Cavicke) who travel within various regions to help ensure the consistency of scoring.

What I am trying to get at is to create an environment which is competitive and fun; competitive because from week to week it is not the best car which wins, but the best car that day. Just because you got 99.8 points the previous show does not mean you can assume that score at every show. You have to prepare, put in the time, show up on game day and play to win.

Your local sports team may be the best team on paper, but they still have to perform on game day. This is why you play the game, and this is what makes it fun. There are no guarantees at each Concours, and I think it is this which will encourage people to come out.

No one wants to show up if itÔÇÖs just going to be the same people getting the same super-inflated scores. By judging consistently and accurately, you level the playing field so that people want to compete, regardless of how perfect or imperfect their car is.

People that compete regularly in Concours learn over time that the effort necessary to achieve a score of 99.00 to 99.50 is nothing compared to the effort needed to take your car from 99.50 to 99.90. That difference usually comes down to an attention to detail which is difficult, if not impossible, to replicate show after show.

All of us as competitors want to see more competition. It makes no sense to have the best car out of 1 or 2. Hyper-inflating the scores is not the way to do this, because it just sends a message to other competitors that there is no point in trying unless you can hit it out of the park every time. We have to give all people a chance by scoring the way it says to in the rules and guides.

I realize that this means everyoneÔÇÖs scores will drop. I think, however, people would rather know the truth about their cars, and what they need to focus on for the next show, than sit around hoping that the judges miss the deductions on their car because they missed them on other peopleÔÇÖs cars.

First place is still 90 points or better. We should not be ashamed of having a 90 point car ÔÇô that is still first place for crying out loud!!

Dan,
I'll go on record as being sympathetic to your concern/rant. Realizing that we're a club of volunteers with varying degrees of expertise, I support efforts to develop Judge's Guides and effective training programs.

I also appreciate the quest for perfection but, long ago, concluded that if you can show your car to at least 9 separate judges who can find nothing wrong, you've probably got a really nice car (especially if the owner doesn't divulge the defects s/he knows about).

And, like you say, an appeals process was created for those who have issues with us amateur judges. So, until we have a paid, traveling team of expert judges, certified in various models of Jags, I say 1) develop more Guides for more cars, 2) train more judges, 3) cut them some slack so judges aren't fearful of volunteering (or being volunteered), and 4) enjoy the show.

Efforts to develop argument-proof algorithms to reach an unarguable conclusion are for those who have too much time on their hands. Go drive your Jag. And if you can't do that in the winter, write a Guide book, if one is lacking.

Others, can fire away if they choose. I've got a glass of some 'heart juice' awaiting me.

Since the conversation moved over here, let me bring over a simplification of a proposal I originally made on Jag-Lovers. Pat Harmon said, "It is impossible to have a majority of technically competent judges at the local club level." While agree with the sentiment, I'd argue that our club has a majority of technically competent judges because where possible, we have the Driven Division entrants judging the Champion Division cars and vice versa. I would agree with Pat's statement if we substitute "full complement" for "majority."

Some clubs and judges do their best to be prepared in advance, informed, educated, and ready come concours day. Even they can't get judges who know everything about every car entered. Also, given the time limit of 15 minutes, things are likely to be overlooked by even the best judges. At my last concours, I judged a car I've judged at least twice before and for the first time noticed that it had two different types of plug wire screw-down connectors on the distributor cap.

The problem with an across-the-board rating for a club is that some judging teams may be excellent while others are mediocre. To penalize the top-notch teams would be unfair to them and the entrants. Assessing teams without access to model judging guides the same way as you would those that do, also seems unfairly harsh.

Before we get too deep into a solution, let's back up one step and not assume we've identified the problem with certainty. For example, suppose we find that scores are reasonably close in classes where judging guides exist, but widely variable where they don't. In that case, the solution appears to be creation of judging guides for the missing models. Despite our grousing, we may discover that the problem of unequal judging is not as pervasive or as variable as we think. I suggest that the first step to solving the problem is identifying it by collecting hard data. The only way to do that, that I can come up with, is to encourage concours competitors to attend either the Challenge Championship or Western States Meet each year. To that end, I have made a proposal to the JCRC which I hope they accept and pass on to the AGM. It reads:

Proposal to add a Challenge Championship and Western States Concours dÔÇÖElegance Score Bonus

Primary Goal: To reward JCNA competitors for subjecting their Jaguars to what is likely more rigorous scrutiny at one of the two large continental Concours held each year.

Secondary Goal: To assess the quality and accuracy of judging at local JCNA Concours d'Elegance and determine if action is needed to improve it.

Tertiary Benefit: Increased turnout at North American Events.

Proposed Text:

At the time of the tabulation of the JCNA Class winners, for the purposes of JCNA Concours dÔÇÖElegance Class ranking, a bonus of .03 points will be added to the final average score of those entries in Champion Division or .003 to those entries in Driven Division, who were judged in the same class either at the JCNA Challenge Championship or the Western States Meet.

Reasoning:

The biggest event of each competition year is either the Challenge Championship or the Western States Meet. These events draw the most judged cars and therefore the greatest pool of judges. That is not to say all of the best judges in North America will attend these events, but the odds are very high that the cumulative knowledge of the judges at a continental meet exceeds that of a local concours. As a result, judging will likely be strictest and deductions greatest at one of these events. Given the greater possibility of deductions, it is only reasonable that some adjustment be made to compensate. This small adjustment, amounting to a minimum deduction at each of the events averaged might not compensate for the average score differential between a local concours and a North American meet, but it will make a distinction for those who chose to expose their cars to what is probably more rigorous judging at one of these events.

Additional information:

If the premise of more rigorous judging at these larger events is true, there is no incentive for entrants to bring their cars to a distant continental event when closer events meet the JCNA ranking requirements just as well. This lack of interest is evident when comparing our continental event turnout to that of a number of other marques, including orphan ones. One would expect the NA Corvette club to eclipse ours, but one of the NA Triumph clubs consistently has a third more cars at their continental event. The Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Club had over 300 cars at their annual reunion this year. That's 3xs what JCNA does and they don't even make them anymore. The MGB club drew 150 cars (not all MGs) to their show. I could go on, but I think it's clear that we are, in effect, telling our members not to waste their time showing up at a CC or WSM because at best, their score will be thrown out. We need to change that.

Application of the Rule:

So that there are no changes at a concours, this is nothing more than adding a .03 (or .003) bonus to the final average score of any entry that was shown at WS or CC. It doesnÔÇÖt make any difference if the entrant entered four or more concours and the CC or WS score was the one thrown out. The fact that they subjected their Jaguar to additional scrutiny at a continental meet earns them the bonus. If someone had three 100-point concours, they'd be ranked based on a final score of 100.03.

This rule would apply only to determine 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Therefore, only those entries within .03 (or .003) points of Third Place would be checked and adjusted for participation at a CC or WS.

Effects of the Rule:

This would create an incentive (rather than a disincentive) for people to attend the big event each year. The serious competitors would still show at their local events, but would also attend the big show in order to earn the bonus. This would give JCNA a basis for comparison of judging quality. If entrants from a club are receiving 100s at the local shows but significantly lower scores at CC or WS, it would indicate that the local judges are missing things. What we do from there is a whole different question, but at least it would give us a starting point to see if local clubs are judging accurately.

This rule will reduce the regional nature of entrants and their cars. If someone wants to be sure of the top JCNA ranking, theyÔÇÖll have to attend the CC or WSM. With more serious competitors attending them in search of the bonus points, weÔÇÖll have a good comparison of judging at the local and continental meets. If a significant disparity exists, perhaps a review of the CC or WSM scoresheets at the local club will get them on track. If we find that some clubs are consistently missing deductions, especially authenticity ones, perhaps some remedial action could be written into the rules. For now, however, consider this a fact-finding mission to see if a problem exists. Even if it doesnÔÇÖt, I still firmly believe that some compensation should be made for showing oneÔÇÖs Jaguar at one of the toughest events during the year.

This rule would not preclude the need for a tie-breaker and I would support that as part of a rules-change package. In fact, itÔÇÖs quite likely that a car could receive three 100s at local concours, go to the CC or WSM, get whatever score it received there, and be tied with someone else who had three 100s and showed at the CC or WSM. George CampÔÇÖs proposal to break ties based on the number of shows attended is a good one and I think should be included in the rule change package at the AGM.

Options:

If you prefer, IÔÇÖd rewrite the rule to add the .03 (.003) points directly to the CC or WS concours score, then use the highest three scores after the bonus is applied for the final average. I believe thatÔÇÖs the better way to do it but itÔÇÖs slightly more complex and I know that complexity is the bugaboo of any proposed rule change. It would also be great if we could include the score + bonus in the online scoring system, but that might involve reprogramming the system to allow for a score larger than 100. If that's an issue, competitors will have to figure it out for themselves.

Another option would be to rewrite the rule to increase the bonus, if the JCRC feels the current proposal is too low.

I will be at the AGM and am willing to argue for this proposal in it's final form.

Respectfully submitted,

Mark Stephenson, Activities Coordinator
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Only the first record is difficult, the rest is a matter data entry. The club judging rules dictate what specific areas of the car a judge should look at, expertise can be collected from model specific experts. So it takes 2 years to finish, the information does not go stale and there are not that many new models to document every year. But most important we record in a standardized digital format the expert knowledge held by the senior club judges. Web linked databases are the way to go and it's not hard if you already know how to do it. As far as resources go, the members already own the cars we need to photograph, we know who the best judges are and cloud computing space is cheap. The hardest part is always deciding what exactly a program needs to do, after that it's just coding.

Bill Pritchard

Hi Bill,
Your suggestion is excellent but who has the resources and the time to do this?

I suggest creating a electronic database of photos and descriptions covering each model & year, showing the close ups of known problem areas and changes specific to that year & model. A tablet device could even be used on the field, objections from owners could be handled on the field. Being electronic the database can be dynamic in nature and allows any judge to have access to the knowledge base of the best judges of the club. This will also have the effect of instructing new judges in how to properly do the job.

Gerald. Thank you for your contribution. Your mentioning of cleanliness deductions has been addressed somewhat in the directions of all chief judges to conduct schools for judges including sample judging. This I believe will eventually show some improvement.

My problem has never been with that. I have found I have had deductions for items that the judges wrongfully believe to be incorrect fitting or assembly defects that appeared after the car left the assembly line when they were in fact defects caused/ created during the assembly process. All the enthusiasts that know these cars inside out could list all of them. With my latest car the judges missed all four of the man made defects that I knew to exist on the car and they instead treated the concours as a show and shine by deducting for items that were assembly flaws and items finished in a manner to reduce production costs. I.e. No clear cote on the underside of the hood/bonnet.

There was another car being shown in preservation class that to any knowledgeable person would easily have been recognised as exhibiting a great probability that it had undergone a full repaint at some time. Other easily visible tell tale items seemed to support this suggestion. However to my knowledge, this car was never questioned. Because the judges apparently did not have the knowledge to recognise these tell tale items as being suspect. This is just not right, and if actually restored, it penalized all those that did own and show genuine preservation class cars... This type of judging has to be corrected. If we are doing a glorified show and shine, letÔÇÖs call it what it is and not pretend it is anything else.

If I might put in my 2-cents into this discussion.
I certainly agree that everything possible should be done to "beef-up" the uniformity and quality of the Concours judging -as has been previously expressed. BUT - I believe that MOST of the deductions received by MOST Concours entrants pertains to Cleanliness & Condition deductions -and this just requires training and set guide-lines. At the present time this is very subjective -and it should NOT be. This is one area where JCNA needs to develop training guide-lines.
To substantially reduce the problems with Originallity evaluations -when ever possible just put an entrant having the "same or similar' Model car -but in the "companion-but-opposite" Class on the Judging Team - i.e. - the owner of a similar Model Driven-Class car to judge a Champion-class car, and Vice-versa. This unfortunately could require a large number of "speciality" judging teams, but they would only have to judge two or three cars -(except for the "popular" models -such as the E-types and the XJS's). For the "rare-&-unusual" cars - You may have to just depend on referance materials, and the knowledge of your Chief Judge.

Thomas. The rating would indeed cause the final score to be lowered because the lack of knowledge would most possibly be the cause of the 100 points being awarded with certain important items being missed by that judge. When a knowledagble judge awards a 100 points it will remain because it was probably fully deserved.

As to the pre-war cars, in my opinion, there are only about a dozen individuals world-wide who really know what's original and what's not. This applies primarily to the early SS cars and the SS-Jag Tourers and DHC's of which not many have survived and even fewer period photos exist. My experience in restoring a 38 DHC over the past couple of years is that even the experts are not sure about many of the details. The SS-100s are an exception in that they were relatively well documented in period photos and most still exist, although only a few in original unrestored condition.

Bob, I have been folowing this on both sites. What happens to a true 100 point car that shows at a concours where the judge is only rated as 70/100? Does his 100 point car loose points because the judge is not 100/100? Wouldn't this cause clubs that don't have the best trained judges to have a small turn out, thus limiting there experiance to judge? I don't have a solution. Maybe a training vidio or greatly detailed judging guid on just what an XK engine should look like would be a help. An XK engine guide showing fans, electricals, intake, exhaust, model changes... In my experiance the older cars are the most difficault to judge. Anyone else want to chime in?
Cheers Tom

Bob good to see your discussions moved here. I think it might be interesting for you to offer this fix to your own club and see if they would be willing to do all of that. The issues John brought up on the other forum are real. The JCRC is very aware of the stress and work placed on clubs to be in full sanction status. Convincing one club might prove valuable when and if 60+ have to be convinced. Hope a few others join in on this.