The purpose of concours to begin with?

Doug; IÆm going to steal your Softball analogy)
If I go to a neighborhood softball game and the umpire, Joe from up the street makes a bad call. (Maybe because he really isnÆt clear on that infield fly rule) We will either laugh it off and have another beer or explain the rule to him and maybe heÆll change his call. Either way we wonÆt worry about it. On the other hand, if we are at a professional baseball game and an umpire makes a bad call (because he doesnÆt understand the infield fly rule) we would, quite justifiably, chastise him from now until the next season. The difference is professional Vs. Hobbyist.

Gentlemen this soft analogy only works when we are talking about mistakes. However the problem is not about mistakes it is about consistent inequity found in the standards of judging between the different clubs? Some are renown to be tough some more lenient. Believing that all things work out even in the end is not true unless you are willing or financially able to tour around visiting far away place to get your car judged. I could own the most perfect car on the circuit and if I stayed around my home clubs I would not rate as a regional champion let alone challenge for a nation championship. Our clubs up here in the North happen to mark really tough. If you get really studious about this I guess you could plot the clubs that as the most lenient and get your scores that way but is that what we want happening. Dont we really want the best cars in the nation to come out on top. So why can we not find a solution that attempts to level the playing field? Is it that impossible to come up with a written directive that affords the "amateur and volunteer" judges some sort of guidance as to how to mark. Maybe we could spend a little more time and effort with the chief judges on these events so that they are better equipped to instruct their individual teams of judges.

Just a thought. Bob.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

Pascal,

How about if we separate the regional and national championships? We continue to decide regional the way it is done now, BUT, for national we hold a "winner takes all" JCC. This takes the inconsistencies between shows or regions out of the national award picture and if anything allows for GREATER participation. You could actually show up for only one event, the JCC, and win a national title! That wouldn't diminish the regional champs in any way as it would not be a direct comparison, AND the regioanl champs could still show up to compete at the JCC if they wanted to do so.

Also, you COULD bring to a JCC (as I suspect they do now?) expert judges.
Sort of the way the NFL brings the best referees to the superbowl.

I know this may not be popular for some because they will say, "Why should some guy or gal who only shows up one time at one event be able to be the National Champion over someone who attended three or four events and had a better average score?" Simple, it should be about the best car and we have proven that the comparison of scores from diferent events is not a very accurate way to assess one car against another when neither was ever at the SAME event. Not because we didn't compare the two cars to each other but because we didn't necessarily do the same comparison of either to the standard (i.e. judging ain't always the same).

I suspect in the end that nothing will change (see my other recent post for other crazy ideas) because I suspect that there is one driver for the status quo that nobody really wants to state; but I'm not PC so here goes:

Judging as it currently exists is not very accurate or consistent (here is the unspoken part) AND THIS IS RESULTING IN MOST CARS BEING JUDGED MUCH HIGHER THAN THEY SHOULD BE.

Maybe that is ok, it in theory does make it more fun. After all who wouldn't rather be told the baby is perfect than have all of its warts and shortcomings pointed out? However, it doesn't NOT promote proper restoration of the cars. I'm ok with that, I'm all for fun and increased participation. I just get fed up with the hipocracy of believeing we are doing both.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

couple of comments... while JCNA scores are often seen in ads, if you read sports car market you will noticed that there is rarely one issue where the editors don't poke at the numbers in the auction comments mentioning "inflated Jaguar club score". I think it shows that scores don't mean that much when selling a car... Also, I've seen a few ads mentioning for instance a first in class in year X .. and when out of curiosity I looked at that year online resutls... that car wasn't even competing!

I like your paralel with SCCA run offs.. declarig a national champ with all the competitors on a level playing field. We have such a competition, and it's the JCNA Challenge Championship unfortunatley, results there count as much as those at the local sanctioned concours.

last year, there was a proposal at the AGM to give the scores obtained at the JCC the same weight as the regular 3 show average. it was voted down, I guess becasue some felt that it was going to discourage participation at local shows. possible. maybe there is a way to encourage participation at the JCC to declare NA champions without discourating local particpation.

The other problem is the fact that the JCC takes place only every other year, one way around that would be to make it an annual event ...yes... a lot of work... but we already have the WEstern States taking place every non JCC year so alternating West / East every year would also encourage participation in our runoff/superbowl/final big event.

right now, the fact that members on one coast have to wait 4 years to have the big event within reasonable distance doesn't help either.

you mentioned other clubs, their champions seems to be crowned at the big event... Porsche, Ferrari, MB, etc... not that our whole concept of championship shoudl be scrapped, but more importance should be placed on participation at the JCC

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Mike,

First, thank you for a sincere and thoughtful post. I think you raise some valid points. I agree with the softball analogy whole heartedly and that is srt of where I was coming from to begin with. If this is a friendly game (a hobby) then inconsistent judging due to "bad calls" can indeed be laughed off and we can all have a beer and try to do better next time. To continue the analogy one step, what I think I've seen a few times now is owners who think this is the major leagues and who argue, rant , and rave like the world series is at stake. It starts to resemble that parent we all know who gets heated at the game when their little Johnny (the car in this case) doesn't get the call the way they saw it.

I was simply speculating that this behavior might be driven somewhat by a sense that regional or national standing holds some importance (maybe financial) far beyond what it should?

I agree that the intent of a concours is to encourage restoration to as original as possible (although I don't quite get the "to perfect" part as they were certainly not perfect from the factory). I'm just not sure how declaring a national champion encourages that, UNLESS you do have a final side by side at the end of the year similar to the SCCA runoffs. I am not sure if other clubs (PCA, the Corvettte guys, etc.) declare national champions of not? I have certainly never seen anyone trying to declare a winner between Pebble Beach, Amelia Island and Meadowbrook? I just don't see how it has much meaning without insisting all of the cars be brought together in one spot and judged by the same group at the same time?

After all, the current rules for a single event say you have to have the same judging team together for the judging of a given class. How can we then justify comparing the scores of two different teams from across the country who didn't even look at the same two cars being "compared"? I realize that this is a logistical and financial near impossibility. Therefore, what I would suggest is that we do away with the national championship and just keep the regionals. After all, the major leagues don't look at the division finals and just declare a champion, they have playoffs. Without the playoffs what you've got is pure speculation.

IMHO, judging is and should be by club members who are not professionals. It should be made as objective as possible but will always have a subjective element. For that very reason, comparison of scores from different events from different regions just doesn't seem to hold much water. I think that one can argue for continuing awarding regional championships, but I think we should up the number of events for that to three (the national standing requirement). That would make it pretty likely that the car awarded the region stood on the same field the same day as most of its competition. It also encourages those who are interested in a trophy at the regional level to show more than two times a year. But I don't see it reducing particiption much as I don't see to many cars crossing regional boundaries much anyway (Not from East to West for example, I realize folks cross to shows NEAR them but in different regions.)? Further, it moves us back toward the fun versus the professional arena.

To all readers, I am not trying to stir any hornets nests. Just "thinking ot loud" about the subject. If I've offended you in some way, please igonore me and move on. If you have a thought on all of this, please weigh in.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

Jeff,

As I understand the purpose to Concours dÆElegance shows (and judging events), they are simply a vehicle by which the clubs encourage the restoration of cars to ôfactory newö condition.
I am still a novice at this, having not even stuck my toe in the water yet. I have run the bath water. But now I have elected to simply take a sponge bath. I have registered for my first ever concours. But, I ôchickened outö and am simply going as a display car. Just wanted to put my cards on the table also.
My status as a novice, however, does not preclude my doing an analysis of your statements.
While it is undeniably true that judging at all Grande Concours and Concours dÆElegance events has, as a norm, become so difficult and strict that even the judges canÆt keep up. As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, there are no Professional Judges; they are all volunteers doing a difficult job with perhaps insufficient training. They are going to make mistakes but here is the deal, as I see it. (Forgive me Doug; IÆm going to steal your Softball analogy)
If I go to a neighborhood softball game and the umpire, Joe from up the street, makes a bad call. (Maybe because he really isnÆt clear on that infield fly rule) We will either laugh it off and have another beer or explain the rule to him and maybe heÆll change his call. Either way we wonÆt worry about it. On the other hand, if we are at a professional baseball game and an umpire makes a bad call (because he doesnÆt understand the infield fly rule) we would, quite justifiably, chastise him from now until the next season. The difference is professional Vs. Hobbyist.
As to using Concours results to further the sale of your car. It seems to me this is more than justified. It has no bearing on the purpose of the shows. It is simply a measure by which we can rate one car against another. If the purpose of the concours events is to attempt to get the various members to restore their various cars to ôperfectionö then why shouldnÆt it be used as a measure of perfection? As in any other commercial deal the rule still is ôCaveat Emptorö let the buyer beware and anyone who based his purchase solely on Concours scores might become a very sad owner of a beautiful ôTrailer Queenö But if I were making the decision on where to spend my obscene amount of money for a 40 or 50 year old car, I would certainly use there various concours results to make a decision between several cars. New analogy; would you spend more fore the ôGrand Championö Cocker Spaniel or the ôPick of the Litterö from a non-champion litter? The answer lies in why you are buying the dog or the car. If you want a dog to fetch your slippers it doesnÆt matter. If you want a dog that will win showsà Buy the grand Champion. Same with the caràIf I just want a driver, I will buy one that looks good from a local owner. If I want a car that is going to win shows, why would I even go to Jacksonville to bid on a car that didnÆt have a pedigree that it can be proud of?

Mike

Æ90 XJ-S Black Convertible

'79 MGB N.A. LE

Patrick,

Again, I ask a question and based on your responses I'm either poor, lazy or now a whiner. Did I do something that deeply offended you?

I asked a legitimate question. Why does the JCNA or any other club hold concours, what is the intended purpose? I asked partly because it is not stated anywhere that I could find? The overal purpose and mission of the JCNA is stated. I was simply trying to start a discussion as to if concours as currently structured promote what they were originaly designed to promote? Before one can discuss the later question, one needs to establish the answer to the former question; what are concours for?

I went on, with regret now, to say that I sense within SOME parts of the Jaguar community I've observed that the original intent had been PARTIALLY corrupted as it is used as a business tool by auction houses, brokers, and restoration shops. You choose to ignore my first question and instead choose AGAIN to post a personal attack on my character. If you are not interested in a discussion on the 'spirit' of concours competition than don't respond. You certainly aren't adding anything intellectual, constructive, or useful with the type of reply you posted.

I am well aware that no one in their right mind will buy a Jaguar sight unseen and /or based only on a JCNA chamionship. For one thing, there are plenty of 100 point cars out there that can't be driven 25 miles. However, I hardly ever see an e-type at a high dollar auction (Barrett Jackson, R&M at Ameilia, etc.) without prominent mention of its JCNA winnings. I did witness significant differences being paid at Amelia two years ago for four e-types, three of which I would have judged very comparable in restoration quality, originality, and desirability (based on year and colors). They sold over a thirty grand span with the national champ pulling ten grand more than the regional champ which pulled ten more more than the high scoring but non-champion car. So there is imperical data that it can and does make a difference at auction. BUT, that wasn't the core of my question, just what you decided to jump on.

As for ME using my JCNA scores to HELP sell MY car, I believe it was I that made that clear in my post. Just because I think it would be nice to NOT have restoration shops and brokers involved in the concours scene for financial rather than Jagaur enthusiasm reasons, that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to the same marketing techniques as everyone else come the time to sell.

I will try this one more time:

What was or is the origianl intent of having a concours? Does anyone know or care? If you do not, then please simply do not respond. I've no need to be called names or ranted at simply because I asked a question.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

Ok, I'll bite....

Assuming for conversation that such a link really exists, or exists to a meaningful degree, what would you suggest to "decouple" JCNA concours from the commercial sales market?

And, if you don't mind my asking, is there some specific episode that you witnessed or otherwise have knowledge of that prompted your postings on the subject?

Doug Dwyer
JDRC/NWA
1987 XJ6 III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Jeff:

First off, no one in their right mind is going to pay top dollar for an E-Type or XK-120 just because it's a JCNA national champion. They are going to examine and scrutinize the car. They will have their experts view and scrutinize the car. Sure, being a JCNA champ is a nice credential, and one that YOU will no doubt use in the sale of your own car, but do you really believe folks pay top dollar just because of that claim, sight unseen?

WHY are you "concerned that the real world result of JCNA concours as currently structured its to promote behavior that is contrary to what it was originally intended to do". Behavior that is contrary? Are you kidding me? Are you a socialist? Are you anti-capitalist? For the life of me, I don't know what your problem is. Do you really think that market value and judging and classic car auctions and parts vendors revolves around a JCNA score? If this is such a problem for you, how about ôde-couplingö your own score(s) and give up your place in the current standings? Let the market and the experts decide what a particular Jaguar is worth. Stop your whining.

Patrick McLoad

Jeff:

First off, no one in their right mind is going to purchase a car or pay top dollar just because it's a JCNA national champion. They are going to view and scrutinize the car. They will have their experts view and scrutinize the car. Sure, being a JCNA champ is a nice credential, and one that YOU will no doubt use in the sale of your own car, but do you really believe folks pay top dollar just because of that claim sight unseen?

WHY are you "concerned that the real world result of JCNA concours as currently structured its to promote behavior that is contrary to what it was originally intended to do". Behavior that is contrary? Are you kidding me? Are you a socialist? Are you anti-capitalist? For the life of me, I don't know what your problem is. Do you really think that market value and judging and restoration shops and parts vendors revolves around a JCNA score?

Patrick McLoad