Maintenence help

We should be talking about E types. most cars, particularly american had the master cylinder and reservoir in the same casting as did all Jags from the Ser 2 XJ, so, no LP lines were involved! And, there are many early fords now with hyd brakes just as there are nunerous VW's with radiators!!

Pre-cisely.
"Steel-draulics" in later years.
Changing out a master cylinder on a 33 Ford is like replacing the radiator cap on your VW Bug.

Didn't those older Fords have mechanical brakes?

I do recall, working in a gas station after school, fella in the shop had a 120 on the lift to change oil.
Figured he had plenty of room in the drain tank.
Pulled the plug, went to wait on gas customers, more customers, and even more customers, when he walked back, oil was coming out the door of the service bay.

I don't think Sir William concerned himself with these minor maintenance problems. After all, he wanted you to change 14 quarts of engine oil every 2500 miles in your XK120...

Or, how did 37 and older Fords work without hydraulic brake issues?

Gee....how did old SS-100's, C-Types, D-Types, and XK-120's EVER operate at all without these new rubber compounds?!! Sir William must have been beside himself over these issues!

P

I was surprised on the radiator overflow hose, but, it's all this new EDPM or EPDM compound.

The issue really is the 6-year shelf life.
That means the old stuff can still be on the shelves.
And you CANNOT use that.

So, to be safe, I use the blue stuff (whatever it is) from XK's.

Hard to tell.
Has a strange consistency when you feel it.

I don't know if it was this or another post, but while you are changing out hoses, make sure you replace the reservoirs as well. The originals will become brittle and will crack, spilling toxic dot 3 and 4 all over your paint. I've seen it happen at a concours.

Patrick

Edited on 2009-06-15 16:15:16

I called XKs and they sell a German hose for gravity fed nonpressure brake fluid applications. It comes in blue or black. They called it "rubber", but they did not know what it was made out of. It sounds like a good choice.

I called Gates Corporation technical support. They recommend heater hose for nonpressure DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5 (silicone base) brake fluid applications. They also recommend other hoses including windshield washer hose and radiator overflow hose. Of course, these hoses are NOT to be used on the pressure side of the braking system.

Okay, update.
I have been in e-mail AND telephone communication with Gates.

My experience path stopped about 10 years ago when some jackass decided stop signs were not mandatory, so my experience is prior to that.
In 2004/2004, Gates changed the heater hose composition to EPDM. This new compound IS allowable in the application.
Earlier hose is NOT.

The fuel-injection hose I mentioned is usable in ALL applications.
At $10/foot, a tad high, but probably more desirable.

The stuff I got from XK's ia blue, definitely, cloth covered, absolutely.

This MK2 had standard old-fashioned fuel line installed at the reservoir, according to records, about 15 years old.
No more decayed than the same stuff on the fuel system.

And, Gates understands about liability AND putting stuff in-print, due to lawyers.
Litigation and Liability.

They also said ALL hoses and belts have a shelf/use life of six years.
That means, change those hoses every six years.

The hose is what XK's supplies as the correct part for at least my MK2.

Let me further state that, as a 40-year auto repair professional, never use something not intended for the job.
The fuel line I have used (in a pinch, until the right stuff was available) was the new fuel injection line, and it didn't "dissolve".

You had best have a whole lot of insurance if you have an accident, and some lawyer finds you have used heater hose in a braking system.
Won't matter if it isn't pressure side.

I've seen the investigations the State Police labs do on fatals, and they can be quite thorough.

We were warned once on not to use the wrong year disc pads, even though they looked the same (GM something or other).

The hose from XK's is blue, feels like silicone based (slippery-sticky), and is cloth braid covered.

I don't see it listed for E types, but I will probably check.

So, let's say you use this heater hose.

Let's say you feel it works fine with glycol-based brake fluids.

Let's say you sell the car.
They replace the seals, pressure hoses, flush it, and put silicone fluid in it.

What will THAT do to the hose?

This is almost as bad as the 53 Chevy that came in on a hook with fresh (and parted) copper brake lines.
Single flared, no less.

Worked fine, until they quit.

Hi Dave

My most important point is: Do not use fuel hose with brake fluid. It will dissolve and coat your braking system with rubber. It will coat your radiator system is you use it with radiator fluid actually.

My second point: Surprisingly, heater hose works well with brake fluid. I used Gates Premium heater hose available in 1/4" and 5/16". I got mine at CarQuest. NAPA is supposed to have it, but they were out of stock.

I am not arguing against your silicone hose. I just have no experience with it. I hope that the new fuel line holds up against 10% ethanol, but I dont think that is nearly as damaging as 50% ethylene glycol.

I dont think we can settle this by discussion. Why dont you do the experiment that I suggested? Put brake fluid in three glass jars. Add a piece of fuel line to one, a piece of Gates Premium heat hose to another, and some of your silicone hose to the third. Report back to us in a month. We will all be interested. I did the experiment with fuel hose and heater hose.

It would be nice to know exactly what silicone hose you recommend and where to get it.

Thanks

Curt

The new fuel line I get from Napa has to work with all the methanol garbage we get now, and it's different.
In a pinch only.
The blue stuff is what connects the reservoir to the steel piping to the master cylinder on my MK2.

Heater hose, never.

But, then again, there are different brands of heater hose.

Where did you find 1/4" or 5/16" heater hose?

Even in shops, for hot-water feed to carbs, we ended up with fuel line.

Hi Dave

It would seem that fuel hose would be good for anything, but its not. Fuel line is made for fuel and oil, hydrocarbons. It will not hold up against multiple alcohols (sugars) like antifreeze and brake fluid. Really, Dot 3 or 4 brake fluid is very closely related to antifreeze chemically. Jags have always used heater hose for the brake fluid reservoirs. Silicone tubing may be OK too, I dont know. Put a piece of fuel hose and a piece of heater hose in some brake fluid. You will see that the fuel hose swells and turns the brake fluid black. The heater hose will be unaffected.

Curt

"Hose to the brake fluid reservoirs MUST be heater hose."

Really?

I would not, as in ever, put brake fluid up against heater hose.

They make special blue silicone-based (I think) hose for that purpose.
Fuel line in a pinch.

Hi David

Some answers to your latest questions.

Radiator hoses are good when they are hard and bad when they are soft. 12 years is borderline. If you think you need them or run out of other things to do, replace all the radiator and heater hoses at the same time. When you redo the brakes, replace all the vacuum hoses. I used hydralic hose. Hose to the brake fluid reservoirs MUST be heater hose.

The old antifreeze lasted three years. The chemicals that keep the block from rusting are depleted after that time. New antifreezes have more chemicals and last five years. Use the yellow?green? Prestone, not that purple? stuff. I hear that it can gel in your engine.

i dont know the torque for the banjo bolts, but I tighten them as tight as I can with the standard length compination wrench that fits the bolt. They have to be pretty tight.

People argue about paper or felt. I just used paper. More important is to use the new gasket that comes with the filter. Somehow you must pick the correct size and make sure the one or more old gaskets stuffed in the groove are removed. Down the line you may want to convert to a spin on filter. Check out CoolCat.com for high quality specialty Jag items and helpful advice.

I use Valvoline DuraBlend synthetic blen 85W-140 gear oil in both the transmission and rear end. It works for limited slip differentials, which you have. Recommended by a highly respected classic car mechanic in Portland.

My gas tank worked fine, but once when I was low on gas I drained it and undid the sump that hangs below the cars sheet metal. It was full of stuff that looked like grass clippings. But its scary to play with gas. Be careful.

By the way, start your Jag with the clutch engaged (out of gear and foot on the brake pedal). This holds the crank in the proper position for easy starting.

Good luck

Curt

Hi Patrick and Curtis

Thank you so much for your responses. Yes, it is an OTS with a manual transmission. When I said "original" I meant stock. There has been a lot of work done to it over the years. Between 1997 and 1999 the interior was restored and some mechanical work was done by a very reputable Jag shop in California, which was the last shop to work on it. I went back through the records night before last and here is some of what I found.

The front right caliper was rebuilt in late 1997 so I expect the fluid was changed at that point. The clutch slave cylinder was replaced as well.

All of the radiator hoses were replaced in late 1997 with a time charge of 6.25 hours and 2 gallons of antifreeze was listed in the parts column, so I would expect that the system was flushed? How often should the hoses be replaced? How often should the system be flushed? Thank you for confirming the 50/50 mix.

I replaced the fuel pump two weeks ago with an SU pump, same as what was in it. By the way what is the maximum torque on the banjo bolt? I used new fiber washers. No sign of sediment and the filter and bowl near the carbs is clean.

I was planning on using the Classic Car Motor Oil, tipping point for me is the preservatives since it doesn't get driven enough. As for the oil filter paper or felt?

What oil would you recommend for the transmission and rear end? I am just going to replace it so I know what to use to top up in the future and when it was replaced.

Thank you for telling me what size of halon extinguisher, the one in the car is powder and very small.

Curtis, thank you for the invite to the Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon Concours, 80 miles is not that far and we will try to make it. Thanks for the advise on the tune up parts and rotor, and yes the Pertronix unit was already on my long list. I was already telling my wife about the tires being too old so thanks for the replacement suggestion. Thanks also for the tool and tool modification suggestions for working on the brakes.

Well it is getting late so I think that is it for now.

Again thank you so much for your advise.

David

Edited on 2009-06-13 1:40:35

Edited on 2009-06-11 14:50:28

Hi David and Patrick

Patrick's post, which arrived as I was writing mine, does a nice job of detailing the maintenance required on a classic car that has not been driven. Im more of a "leave well enough alone" guy, so personnally, I would not wrestle with the radiator unless I knew it had a problem.

Also, I worry about the suggestion of a deep cycle battery. My understanding is that unlike standard batteries, these are designed for complete discharge so they can be used as house batteries in trailers. I understand that the price you pay is the inability to supply the large currents necessary for starting a car.

I have heard that the zinc in deisel oil has also been reduced. I would go with the classic car oils which get around the federal mandate to lower zinc to save catalytic converters. Racing oils can also have zinc at the 1200ppm you want. I use Brad Penn 20W-50 Grade 1 Racing oil available from Oregon Cam Grinding at 5913 NE 127th Ave in eastern Vancouver WA. They will ship cases to you (360-256-7985).

I would also replace the spark plug wires, dist cap, coil, and rotor. People have been having trouble with asian rotors that have a high carbon content in the plastic and metal bits too close together. Mossmotors.com has solved this problem with a premium rotor, part # 872-785. I would also replace the points with a Pertronix unit. ($100) Beware, you must have at least 12v at the coil for this unit to work.

Brakes are the most important refurbish. The three rubber brake lines deteriorate from the inside out, and must be replaced. I would put remote bleeds on the rear brake cylinders. For each cylinder I used a 12" brake line. Auto Zone has lines with British style fittings. Bolt a three-way union C18834 to the IRS sheet metal, and fill the other two holes with bleed nipples. A crows foot on your 3/8" drive socket set can be used on the present bleed nipple. I grind off the extra meat so I can rotate them further. Great Neck crows feet are undersize and must be filed to fit, but that is better than the other asian brand that is oversize and rounds nuts. You must bleed the rear brakes first or the safety features will prevent bleeding.

I would not touch the parking brake system unless far in the future you have to drop the rear axle (IRS).

Old tires can explode while driving, or worse yet as you fill them. Most classic car owners recommend changing tires at 6 to 10 years, regardless of how they look. People like the 185 HR 15 Vredestein Sprint Classic tires at about $135 ea. You will need five and new inner tubes as well.

The brake cylinders shoud be attached with 1/4" bolts with small 3/8" heads. For the rear ones I use an extra long combination open end-box wrench, a 1/4" drive socket set, a modern box wrench with low angle rachet, and most important a wrench with a swivel socket. I modified the swivel wrench by grinding off as much of the swivel and as much of the hex as is reasonable to make it as small as possible.

I drove my Jag as I refurbished it, but you do need brakes. These cars really perform beautifully after refurboshing the parts that have deteriorated over 40 years.

Curt

Hi David

Congratulations. Sounds like a great car that any Jag enthusiast would like to own.

It also sounds like you know just what to do. You can ask specific questions as you go along. You are correct about the vacuum servo being bad. They eat brake fluild. If the servo must be rebuilt, you should just have all the brake components sleeved and rebuilt. It is really not that hard to remove and replace parts, and even the rear wheel cylinders can be removed with some special tools. I had my brake components rebuilt professionally, and the servo is half of the total cost.

Rust is the real killer for these cars, and they rust from the inside out, so you wont see it until the late stage. The sills, which hold the car together, are the biggest problem. Since we dont salt the roads in Oregon, you are probably better off than most of us. Down the line you should investigate the sills. I recommend only treating with an oil to prevenht more rust.

If you are only 80 miles from Portland, drop in at the Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon Concours, July 18 at Blue Lake Park near Troutdale. You can ask questons of other Jag people. I will be there and would love to talk with you. If you want to participate, Goggle the club for info.

Good luck

Curt

Edited on 2009-06-10 13:12:07

By the way, the designations on these cars are:

FHC = Fixed Head Coupe (is there any other kind?)

OTS = Open Two-Seater (convertible)

2+2 = A coupe with a raised head with 2 seats in the back, normally only big enough for sacks of groceries and small kids!

(I have not seen an OTC before)

Edited on 2009-06-10 13:05:38

Congratulations David, you lucky dog!! I think it is great that the car is staying in the family, and that it has all of the original documentation.

The good news is that you've inherited a sought-after classic thoroughbred with a rich racing history; the not so good news is that it is 39-years old and was made in the UK. Although most parts are available, getting them requires a bit more than just a trip down to the local NAPA store.

In regards to parts suppliers, yes, XK's and Terry's are but two of many. Acquiring a Hemmings Motor News from the local bookstore might help. Or just do a Google search for Jaguar Parts. Personally, I only do business with SNG Barratt / USA:
http://www.sngbarrattusa.com/

In regards to motor oil, there are a number out there that work, but you want one with a high zinc content for OHV tappets. Most current motor oil formulations do not have this zinc. I think the Shell Rotella has the needed zinc. There is also Classic Car Motor Oil:
http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

David, if you perhaps have the original brake fluid in the system, or even if it is 15-20 years old, I'd pretty much count on your master cylinders having rust-pitted bores. As you probably know, hyd. fluid is hygroscopic, and absorbs water from the air. This water usually does quite a number on all of the internal steel parts. Yes, you can rebuild one master and flush the lines, but that's really only a band-aid on a much bigger problem. Your choice is to fix it all now in one fell swoop, or fix as problems arise. But as long as you are removing one master cylinder, you really should just do them all....including the brake calipers. You have a choice of simply replacing the master cylinders with new ones, or, having your originals re-sleeved in brass or stainless steel. In either case, save the originals and pay the core fee. (Kinda depends on how fussy you want to get about originality).

I suggest you take lots of photos as you disassemble, and save every little clip, clamp, and bolt you take off....originals are hard to come by these days. Remove your master cylinders and check the bores. If you are VERY lucky, a simple clean-up or honing is all that's needed. If pitted, I'd send them out for a re-sleeve. White Post Restorations does theirs in brass:
http://www.whitepost.com/

You should also remove both front brake calipers and check the cylinders of those. They too probably need re-sleeving....don't worry, it happens to all of us eventually. A note here about finish. The calipers and brake cylinders, if restored correctly, should be re-plated in cadmium...not simply sprayed with silver Krylon paint. Personally, I would want my ORIGINALS re-sleeved and returned to me, not just a core swap. You can make some marks into the metal on the underside of your parts just to make sure you get the originals back. There's also nothing wrong with buying new master cylinders and saving the originals for the next owner. Replacements may or may not look exactly like the originals, but they should work.

Getting the rear inboard brake calipers off is quite another can of worms, and I suggest you fully read the manual on this. It will be difficult, but not impossible, and it just takes effort and perseverance. Take your time and do it right the first time....you do NOT want to have to do this again!! Getting the rear calipers off yourself (if physically able) is what separates the true car nuts from the weekend wannabe's. Yes, you can hire a mechanic to do this, but you'll pay dearly for him to do something that you are capable of doing yourself. I do not consider sleeving cylinders as a do-it-yourself task.

And if that's not enough to scare you away, consider that the brake lines (pipes) are probably just as rusty inside as well. A really complete hydraulic system overhaul would include replacing the lines with new pre-bent lines. (Stainless pre-bents are great, but can be a pain in the butt if they don't fit exactly right)

Unless the new or rebuilt master cylinders are specifically designed to handle silicone brake fluid, you should stay away from it. Silicone will attack normal rubber parts. Silicone fluid and Dot 3 or 4 fluids are not compatible, and should never be mixed. The great thing about silicone on the other hand is that it will not attck paint, and correct me if I'm wrong, is not hygroscopic. See "Understanding Brake Fluid":
http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/fluid.shtml

No, best for you to stay with who brought you to the dance. I use Valvoline "Syn" Power (full synthetic Dot 3&4) brake fluid, and it's available at most auto parts stores; works fine for me.

Keep in mind that old or new, brake fluid will strip your car's paint so be VERY careful to wipe up any drips on the paint. Drape everything with towells as if you are handling hydrocloric acid. I would replace the hyd. fluid reservoirs as they become brittle from engine heat and will shatter (I've seen it).

I'm a big believer in preventative maintenance, so on a 39 year old British car, I would:
Remove the radiator; and have it serviced and tested. I would also remove and replace the water pump, and all water hoses. (The braided vacuum lines are probably okay; just make sure they are on tightly). Fifty-Fifty coolant should do well where you are located, but you might to to toss in a bottle or two of Wetter Water. Might replace the thermostat too. Always use new gaskets on all of these items!

I would replace the filter in the glass filter bowl. I prefer the paper-type as you can see when it gets dirty (I just replaced mine; $18 at SNG Barratt).

I would also remove the gas tank suction line (that oval piece on the tank), and somehow suction out the sump area that the line fits down into. (Another option would be to unscrew it from the tank underneath the car, but you would need to pump out all the gas....you might want to do that anyway.) Check and/or replace the little sock filter at the end of this pick-up tube. You just want all rust and debris out of this sump. If there is heavy rust, or black mucky stuff, you might consider having the tank cleaned and re-lined. Whatever you do, DO NOT use the crap that Eastwood sells for relining a gas tank. Sloshing around some crap from a $27 quart can just doesn't get it (you get what you pay for). I used Gas Tank renew: (New replacement tanks are about $750)
http://www.gastankrenu.com/

If you don't care too much about JCNA concours correctness, I would replace the plastic fuel lines to and from the fuel pump with rubber lines and clamps. These plastic lines can also become brittle and can break. You might stick an in-line fuel filter in there just for grins. In the engine, there is also a plastic line that leads from the output of the filter bowl to the fuel manifold. Just one less thing to worry about.

I would also go ahead and replace the electric fuel pump. The last thing you need is for it to quit while driving. Yes, you can get a cheapie at the local auto store, but you have to be careful about the right pressure for the system. I recommend replacing it with a new SU electronic-type pump. It fits exactly where the old one sits. I wouldn't bother with the old-style points type. Almost any parts supplier worth their salt can get one for you.
http://www.sucarb.co.uk/default.aspx

Of course, change your ATF and filter (if automatic), and wouldn't hurt to replace the rear-end fluid.

Okay, now you're done. A clean and SAFE hydraulic braking system; a clean and well-operating fuel system for reliability; and a proper cooling system for the car. You're almost ready to roll.

Last but not least, ALWAYS keep a Halon-type fire extinguisher in the passenger compartment. If you have to open a boot lid (trunk) to get it, you're probably too late. In the event of a fuel fire under the hood, you will not want to open the bonnet (nor will you want to spend time unlatching both sides. and sticking your hand under the center section for the safety latch). A chemical powder will do you no good and will make a huge mess of your engine. No, a good sized Halon fire extinguisher aimed through the louvers on your bonnet is the only way. Personally, I carry a 5-pounder from Buckeye:
http://www.buckeyef.com/Prod_Halotron_portable.asp

You might also give some thought to storage of your car with a regular fluid-acid filled battery. If you use a battery like this, you should keep it out of the Jaguar, especially if you keep the bonnet closed and a car cover on the car. The venting gasses will ruin all of the paint and aluminum under the bonnet. I recommend a gel battery, specifically the "deep cycle" yellow battery. They seem to never require a trickle charge, and will not out-gas harmful gasses under your hood.

Okay, now that I've spent all of your money, that's it for me!

Happy motoring!