Proposal #2 - JCNA to Revise System of Local Awards at Club Concours

To Stevo:
I think your suggestions are creative & have piqued my interest. I doubt that they will pass an AGM vote (having pitched a few non-flyers for AGMS over the last few years myself) ... Go for it ... what's the worst that could happen?

To Doug D:
I agree that scores reflect self-improvement. However, year to year and club to club consistency I have seen supports their objectve, comparitive value too ...

To Daniel T:
I thought your club DID get away from "Big Government" already ...

To Pascal:
Is your Concours crashing Sping Break for the wet Ts?

Regards,

D Lokun

I agree and I'd take it even further. Get JCNA and "big government"out of the local clubs completely. Make JCNA a national club all on its own who will write its own rules and run its own concours and cut the local clubs off completely. Let them be 100% independent. They can do whatever they want, charge whatever they want, give out whatever trophies they want and give whatever points to want to whomever they want.

Steve:

All of your proposals have a fatal flaw. Each proposal has a "big government" bias. JCNA must stop attempting to micromanage the local clubs. There is a wise story about a local Assistant United States Attorney who knows he/she is in deep trouble when someone from the Department of Justice offers to help.

Our club sold its inventory of JCNA "standard issue" trophies to another club and now uses custom crystal trophies exclusively for our concours. The number of trophies we present is none of JCNA's business. Our club's concours trophy budget is none of JCNA's business.

I just don't understand WHY you (JCNA) has any business in how, why, or to whom local awards are given. This simply sounds like big government to me, telling me I can't smoke in my own home. Why does everything have to CHANGE for crips sake?!! It's difficult enough as it is to get people to participate in the organization and implementation of a concours without writing yet more rules to follow.

Patrick

I hear ya, Daniel.

When I compete (on again, off again over the years) I've always felt that I mainly compete against myself to improve my own car and increase my own score. And part of the fun is a high score vs. dollar spent ratio .

In truth, the only award/trophy that *really* means anythng to me is the "Most Improved Jaguar" ...which was presented to me by the CJ of the club I belonged to at the time. To me it was recognition and appreciation, specifically, of the work I had done. All the regular JCNA awards are as much luck of the draw as anything else, what with all the vague aspects of judging, class size on a given day, etc etc

Well, enough of all that. I've gotten this thread waaaay off on a tangent. Sorry, Steve.

Cheers
DD

Oh sure Doug, its more satisfying to beat a field of strong cars, although I am usually not destined for top spot in those situations I am almost always in the top 3, so I do end up with a lot of hardware at the end of the day.

I tend to focus more on score, after 5 years of showing the same car and 3 as a judge, I pretty much know what I deserve score wise before the show. What I end up with as compared to my expectations is where I am either pleased or dissapointed. But I do enjoy taking home a trophy, knowing that regardless of how many competitors I am entering against, I am going to field a competitive car. If I wanted to spend a couple thousand dollars on some more restoration, I could get the car to the point where it would be unbeatable, but its just not worth it for me, its just a hobby, not a serious pursuit for me.

I recognize though that there are folks who spend vast sums of money to get that last tenth or two, and they should get something back for the efforts IMHO, whether they are competing against a full field or no one.

D

The cost of good trophies are negligible, at least here in Florida. We spend between $10 and $15 a piece for them and they are very impressive. I personally am competing on the continental level so I could care less about my local competition as most don't go to enough shows (there are four clubs in Florida). I have rarely gotten more that .4 off my cars (and most often I get perfect scores). In any case that's up the the affiliates, and should not be a JCNA thing. I might add we attract between 35 and 50 cars to our events and that is not including display or not Jaguars.

Lou,

They are important to a point, but when someone with a sorry 90.0 point car can win first place in a class, that sort of dilutes the value of of a first place trophy. Besides, what you're talking about is people's choice awards which have no standards and are often unfair, if you're used to the rigors of JCNA or any other marque judging.

I say we leave the awarding of trophies up to the clubs, as it has always been. If an entrant prefers a concours where everyone receives a $10 plastic trophy with a $5 plaque he or she can attend that show. If they prefer a concours where the there are three impressive $50 trophies for the best Champion, Driven, and Enthusiasts cars, $40 for seconds, and $30 for thirds, and everyone gets the $5 plaque, then they can attend those. They can express their preferences at their local club for their local club. I believe it was Gerry E. who said that they did the three trophies for each division and things went very well.

I'm sorry, awards are important to the success of an event. We may not like it, but it is so. There is a large charity event here in Orlando that is very stingy with their trophies. They have a huge turnover from year to year. People get annoyed when they travel from a distance (or even in the neighborhood) and not get something. I got disgusted with it after having done the show for its first three years, when my XK (three perfect tens in D9b) lost to a clapped out AM. He groups all British cars including RRs down to Minis in one class with one trophy. One of my club members lost with his perfect XJ220 and never came back. I might add he always shows in display at our events, so he is not a trophy hound.

"You certainly need to look at a much larger sampling than your own club, 21 cars is a small number for a concours. Expand your analysis to include medium and large concours, because your "solution" would not appeal to me one bit in a larger concours with a lot more participants.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA "

I don't claim that trophies are a backbreaker, but reducing the number does save significant club funds allowing a reduction in entry fees (which are an inhibition to some people). The PRIMARY reason to reduce the number of local awards is so that they are competitive. No more awards to cars without competition, UNLESS you are one of the top 3 Driven or Champion division cars, in which case you get a trophy even if you are the only car in your class.

With respect to numbers of participants....

Through 15 concours this year, the average participation is 25 cars. The largest is 42 and the smallest 15. So I contend that our 21 is pretty typical. Interesting that the largest concours had exactly the same number of participants as classes....how ironic.

Oh, you deserve the trophy, sure. As you rightfully say, its not your fault that nobody else showed up.

I'm not very competetive so its natural that our viewpoints might differ in some respects here. But, for me, its never been about collecting trophies....not that I actually object to receiving them, mind you :-)

However, I think you'd agree that bringing home a trophy is more meaningful when you were among, let's say, a group of six competitors .....all with nice Jags. I'd rather place third is a competetive group of six than place first in a group of one :-)

Cheers
DD

I am not sure I agree that competing in a one car class you are not deserving of a trophy. Lets say I compete in a one car class, it's happened to me maybe once or twice, and I come away with a 9.98 which is not an atypical score for me. Why is a 9.98 not deserving of an award? My car was finely prepared, its not my fault that no one else showed up. I dont feel cheap taking home that trophy whatsoever, because I know from those times I have competed with 4 or 5 cars in my class and always finished in the top 2, that I am fielding a competitive car.

It doesn't feel like a cheap victory to me. I will say though that perhaps the scoring thresholds are a little low as they are currently set. Perhaps the solution is to adjust those scoring thresholds so that you can only take a first place trophy with a 9.9 or better instead of the 9.0 it is currently set to. Not too many cars that score 9.0 would even bring home an award in a multiple car class.

Like some of the guys in here, I have no more room on my trophy shelf, and have begun storing duplicate 2nd place pewter plates. The ones that get the preferred spots on the shelf are the regional, national awards and the crystal trophies that some clubs hand out. But my competitve nature is always going to make me want to add to the collection and replace some of the 2nds with 1sts over time.

I'm with Doug. Unless you have unlimited shelf space, after a couple years, you run out of room for the trophies. There are a few I cherish, like the ones from Western States and CCs, but I've donated a lot of my plates back to the club and a bunch more are in boxes. I've quit showing my cars because they are far from original, yet with so many classes, I still win awards. When you win first in a one-car class, the award is kind of unrepresentative.

Regarding the proposal itself, the title is a bit deceptive. Currently there are no JCNA rules that cover the awarding of trophies, so there is no "revision." Basically Steve G. is proposing a rule for "JCNA to Restrict Local Awards at Club Concours." Considering there is no current rule, is this necessary? As Gerry E. pointed out they awarded three trophies for Champ, three for Driven, and three for Enthusiast at their concours this year.

Some clubs still have 40+ judged cars at their concours. Different clubs have different expectations. There is innovation and statistical review to be had by giving clubs the freedom to determine their awards. Innovation could take the form of awards for the best component (engine bay, interior, exterior). If some concours drop the number of trophies, and their concours participation drops more or increases less than the clubs that award lots of trophies, then they have the option to add more awards without an Act of Congress.
;-)

I don't think we should institute a one-size-fits-all proposal restricting trophy awards. Let's leave it up to the local clubs.

I don't want to go too far off on a tangent but I find some of this a little disturbing.

I can only speak for myself but declining a concours based on the possibilty (or known fact) that I wouldn't be bringing home another pewter plate has never entered my mind.

I've rec'd trophies based on lack of competetion and a couple times have been scored higher than more deserving entrants......its a shallow victory; not very satisfying.

I'm all for increasing participation but I have to wonder if we're selling everyone short here. Participating in a concours shouldn't be the same as buying a Happy Meal where you're guaranteed a toy at the bottom of every bag.

Or, maybe I'm the lone ranger. I dunno. But if sucess of the concours program is dependent simply on more people walking away with trophies...well....I guess I'm naive and have misjudged a lot of things.

Cheers
DD

I think this would be a killer for participation. Regardless of the points you receive if your going for North AMerican awards, it's part of the fun to receive an award. I'm afraid this will cuase a lot of phone calls and messages to concours chairs prior to thier show asking how many have entered in a prticular class.

Edited on 2008-07-16 19:58:18

Concours entry fees are not presently excessive in my opinion. They make up typically less than 20% of the overall cost of attending.

If trophy cost is an issue, just purchase low cost trophies. I know I have been to some concours with use the JCNA supplied trophies, some who buy their own crystal trophies including mine, these can be really nice, engraved with the venue and date, and elaborate, and some who supply very inexpensive plastic. Somehow here again I am wondering if you have supporting evidence to support your premise that the cost of the trophies is a backbreaker. Do you know the average cost a JCNA affiliate club pays for their trophies? How much the average club charges for its entrance fee, or how much they spend on concessions, the venue if it is not donated? Have you got this information for your own club, multiple clubs in multiple areas, or are you just guessing?

You certainly need to look at a much larger sampling than your own club, 21 cars is a small number for a concours. Expand your analysis to include medium and large concours, because your "solution" would not appeal to me one bit in a larger concours with a lot more participants.