Re.: Concours

Oops, sorry about the duplicate post. I had the page open, left to log back in again and when I returned it indicated that I needed to refresh the page. When I did, it resent the message. Pascal you can delete the unnamed copy and this e-mail if you like.

Daniel,

It would take a lot to get me to LA, but then again there are a lot of really neat places in LA that would be worth seeing. If you had a show at or near Jay Leno's garage that included a tour, you'd have a hard time handling all the people. Griffith Park, with a tour and perhaps a little star gazing at the observatory would be great. What about something near the Hollywood Walk of Fame with a screening of Grand Prix or LeMans at Grauman's? Then there's the Peterson Museum, but that's not the only auto place. I did a quick Google and turned up 9 auto museums in the LA area.
http://gridskipper.com/63498/museums-classic-car-collections-in-la#pointmap

If it's not all burned out, ;-) the Big Bear Lake area would be a beautiful place for a concours.

If there's a problem it would be driving across the deserts in my 120 in the middle of the summer, spring or fall, and you'd have a great chance of getting me there if there was something really great to do in conjunction with the concours.

I dunno Doug, Victoria is a pretty darn English place to begin with, I am not sure how much of that you can chalk up to your putting on a great show and how much you can chalk up to having a GREAT location to hold it!

I would love to come up and visit your show sometime, I have heard about it for years now, Victoria, having been a couple of times in the past 10 years, is one of my wife and I favorite places to visit, but it's too far away to drive the car, at least until 20 or 30 years from now when we retire and have plenty of time to make it a leisurely trip. Maybe then!

It is tough to attract people to events here in Los Angeles, maybe there are simply too many other things to do year round. You have to have a pretty special event to draw out the people. I see 10,000 empty seats in Dodger Stadium when their team is in first place, this amazes me. I guess people are just busy at the beach or the golf course or one of the other million things they do around here.

Well, my clubÔÇÖs Concours has also come-&-gone. Like many of those who have posted on this Forum, the number of those participating as ÔÇ£EnthusiastsÔÇØ was probably equal to those participating in the JCNA-judged group and were the only cars eligible for the ÔÇ£Popular ChoiceÔÇØ judging and awards. As has also been experienced by others, about half of the 30+ JCNA Classes represented had only one entrant. Each ÔÇ£Concours-judgedÔÇØ car was judged in accordance with JCNA standards for their class - receiving the appropriate score which is then sent to JCNA. In the awarding of the Club-awards however , the scores of those in the Driven Division were compared with all others in the Driven Division, and those in the Champion Division compared with all others in the in the Champion Division. The ÔÇ£Club AwardsÔÇØ were then awarded in accordance with your score compared with all others in your Division. There were of course several 1st, 2nd, 3rd. and ÔÇ£Honorable MentionÔÇØ duplicate awards given out, but certainly not as many as would have been had awards been given for each Class represented. If you were there strictly for the ÔÇ£AwardÔÇØ ÔÇôthis may have seemed unfair, since if you were the only entrant in your Class but your score was low enough, you may not have receive an Award at all ÔÇôor only an ÔÇ£Honorable MentionÔÇØ award. Those in the ÔÇ£EnthusiastsÔÇØ group were awarded the same 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Place Awards as those in the ÔÇ£JudgedÔÇØ group (since ÔÇ£JCNA AwardsÔÇØ were not given). I perceived no complaints or objections to the method by which the Awards were given (and I was one of those who went from First to Third ÔÇôand almost ÔÇ£honorable mentionÔÇØ).

(So Steve Gallant & Mark Stephenson -as you suggested in your previous Posts ÔÇôit can be done)

"The enthusiast concept, at least to my mind, would not encourage members from neighboring clubs to drive the distances they currently drive to show their cars.

I could be totally off base here, and maybe more people would turn out from neighboring clubs just for fun. I would say the best thing you could do is track enthusiast participation, to see how much local participation this stimulates along with tracking how many out of towners are choosing to register in that division to be sure."

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It's been done, Daniel.... and for four years now, at Jaguars on the Island, which is the largest Jaguar event anywhere in North America. Here's this year's numbers: 153 total entries, 119 in Enthusiast Division, and 34 in judged Divisions. Local entrants numbered 110, with 94 opting for Enthisiast. Out of Town entrants numbered 43, with 25 choosing Enthusiast.

Give'em what they want, and they'll come.

But there is more to it than just offering an Enthusiast option, the event has to be enjoyable and interesting. I detailed our Club's approach in the article starting on page 27 of the January-February issue of Jaguar Journal. If you missed that, you can find it at the link below.

Doug Ingram
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria

There are lots of options when you take the midset of an Enthusiasts Division, rather than display only.

For example, you don't have to do people's choice. You can judge the cars of the owners who wanted it, and award trophies based on the best component -- best interior, best exterior, best engine compartment, cleanest car, etc. It's only limited by imagination. The only caveat is that clubs would have to spell out how their running Enthusiast Division on their entry forms.

Another valuable use of Enthusiasts Division would be to gently break participants into the world of JCNA competition, by judging entrants' cars with the entrant hovering over your shoulder and indicating what you would deduct for. I think this would make the full-on judging less intimidating and encourage people to move up to the competeition.

I guess my point is that an enthusiast division successfully encourages more participation by a local club's member base, which is a good thing. Honestly I see clubs like mine with 300 or 400 members in the roster who can muster only 30-40 home area cars for their shows for about a 10% turnout. Take that up to even 30% and it would be a huge increase. I would say this concept would be good in general for all JCNA Concours, however I don't feel it should be encouraged at the expense of the Driven division but in conjunction with it.

The enthusiast concept, at least to my mind, would not encourage members from neighboring clubs to drive the distances they currently drive to show their cars. I think its a good thing when neighboring clubs attend one anothers shows, its one way the clubs can meet each others member base, interact. Sometimes some friendly rivalries result. It makes each club feel a little more part of the whole when we host and visit neighboring clubs.

Outside of your home club's show, participation in a Concours represents a significant investment in time and money. To attend a one day show that I can drive to and from in the same day, with preparation, requires a full two days of my time, plus the registration fee for the car, $1 every 3 miles I travel due to the unfortunate combo of a 6 liter V12 and $5.00 gas! So its a pretty substantial investment and I feel many competitors do it yes because they enjoy it but also because they are competing. One can have fun on the weekend in one's own area for a lot less time, money and effort. A lot of the folks I judge are not ready for Champion or like me have no desire to go that route and yet I don't think they are going to do the drive to be essentially display only cars, for the most part.

I could be totally off base here, and maybe more people would turn out from neighboring clubs just for fun. I would say the best thing you could do is track enthusiast participation, to see how much local participation this stimulates along with tracking how may out of towners are choosing to register in that division to be sure.

Regards,

Daniel

"An enthusiasts division provides little appeal outside of my home show, which I would attend just to support my club. My 4 door saloon is never going to win any popular votes even though it is a stunning car. That makes me a lot less likely to drive any distance to "compete" against a field of cars I have no hope of winning anything against. "
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Daniel, since you are more competitive than most, you may not appreicate that Enthusiast Division isn't really intended to pit one car against the other as an official class. Its really just about getting more owners out on the field to enjoy the cars and the day.

I think we all know that "popular vote", because of the total informality, is nothing but a pleasant notion. Sure, a momentary little warm-n-fuzzy if you are lucky enough to win but, until now, I've never heard of anyone being concerned about winning or losing a popular vote !

Cheers
DD

Edited on 2008-07-13 23:21:19

I have been showing My 1994 XJ12 in Driven for the past 5 years, I am also a certified judge. This year I am on a break from a normally busy 4-5 show concours schedule due to a busy work schedule, although I will probably still do my home club show.

I weigh in here because I felt like it might be good for you to have an opinion from a Driven entrant , who is also a judge. I have no plans to ever move to Champion division for various reasons, I have no desire to clean an engine on a car that I intend to drive occasionally to within an inch of its life with Q tips. I don't want to go out and spend $200 on a spare tire that matches my 4 driven wheels, I replaced my original CD Changer with one that actually works, but is not original and it would be too much work to swap in the old non functional one for 3 or 4 shows a year.

An enthusiasts division provides little appeal outside of my home show, which I would attend just to support my club. My 4 door saloon is never going to win any popular votes even though it is a stunning car. That makes me a lot less likely to drive any distance to "compete" against a field of cars I have no hope of winning anything against. I am a competive guy, it is in my nature to want to compete against other fine cars in the hopes that I will take home a trophy and unlike what most of the folks in here have indicated, my class, D07 tends to frequently have up to 5 cars at a show, so no, not everyone takes home the goods. In the enthusiast class scenario the popular vote winner is likely going to be a sports model, with an XK or an E, I would say taking the vote most often, with an occasional 420 with a two tone paint job being a crowd pleaser also.

My car appeals to me but not to everyone. You might be able to mitigate this a little by creating two enthusiast classes, sports car and saloon so at least the saloon guys have an outside shot at winning something for their effort to show up. Even so, aside from this year when I am not going to make any of these shows anyway, with no driven division my participation in San Diego, Idylwild, San Luis Obispo, and other shows which I have participated in the past will probably end. Retool it , but if it is participation you are after, at least in this entrants opinion, eliminating the Driven class is not going to add entrants.

Daniel

I like the idea of compressing the classes. That wouldn't effect the number of entries and those participating in Champion and Driven classes will still have JCNA standards to be judged. Driven class should be a way that cars that have been updated can compete. An auxilliary fan on an XK which would be a non-authentic change in Champion would not hurt a driven class car. Most entries are in Driven Class.

I think a club's appeal to members is local. That is how we get most of our members. Concours events are supposed to be fun. Participants should have an enjoyable experience. One fellow told me he stopped showing his car because it tore him up to not get 100 pts. and struggled with the competition. Why? The best thing about owning these cars is get them on the road and enjoy driving them.

Just as a general comment, I am not one to really be involved in Concours, most especially Champion division. I respect those who love to prepare their cars to that standard, but for me, it's more about driving my car. So I slalom and do local rallys (no JCNA rallies around us), road trips, etc. Recently, the Jaguar Touring Club ran a "car show" at a local venue called Cats in the Garden, on the property of an old mansion turned museum and old English gardens. I participated, showing my car along with about 60 or so other enthusiasts. There was no JCNA judging, either Concours or Driven Division. Instead, the club had representatives of the main sponsors look over the cars and pick their favorites, who received prizes. It was strictly subjective. Classes were broken down by decades rather than grouped by model. And a concensus Best in Show car was picked. Everyone had a great time, enjoyed the cars, picniced on the grounds, and were satisfied with the way the judging was handled. No one missed the lack of JCNA judging.

I agree with Steve Gallant's comment in response to Sherman -- trailering is not the "major issue" for the fall Board meeting. If it is, I'm wasting my money going down for it. Certainly that controversy needs to be addressed, but I, for one, believe it needs to be in the broader perspective of what we need to do to revitalize JCNA and move it forward. I have been pushing this issue for several years now, i.e., what can we do to make JCNA more relevant to a broader base of Jagaur owners and enthusiasts?

I hope that the Board will not waste a huge amount of time on the trailering issue. There are far more important issues for use to be talking about. As a Board member, I don't want to be viewed as one of the members of the string quartet that played on the deck as the Titanic sank, or Nero fiddling while Rome burned (pick your own analogy). All of JCNA must be proactive on this very issue. I like the Enthusiast Division idea. My point in discussing the JTC event is that this is available to clubs right now. Nothing in the rules stops a club from implementing that idea. No Board action is need, no AGM vote required. Just do it, as the slogan goes.

But I do hope that those with ideas, now matter how good or fully thought out they might be, on how to improve JCNA will speak up between now and the fall Board meeting and throw out your ideas for consideration. You never know what might come from unfettered brain-storming.

Regards,
Steve

As a brand new member who attended his first Jaguar concours last month (on a very HOT day in Connecticut) I thought you all might find my initial impressions of value. First, I am a jag nut from way back who also is a British car junkie who has a number of MGs as well (I know -utterly incurable) and have attended many car shows in the past. First of all the British car show in Connecticut, held just a few weeks before the Jag show had almost 200 cars. Triumphs, MGs, Land Rovers, TVRs, and a pawltry 3 jaguars showed up. Just a popularity contest wherein all who attended with their cars got to vote on the cars- putting all the judging in the hands of the participants. Good and bad. Good in that the participants got personally involved in "judging" the cars. It obviously had a good turnout - large enough for vendors to show up and sell hot dogs/t-shirts etc. Enjoyable day, enabling me to see and inspect many cars that normally one does not get to see (low mileage TR8 for example). Bad news- the "winners" had little to do with originality (for the most part) and were based on crowd appeal and which car's owner was popular with other owners. New paint job always scored much higher than an original. Such is crowd appeal.
The Jag show was much smaller as mentioned in this thread and was much more formal - (rags down at noon!). I drove my new jag xke to the show (who has time to vaccuum or clean?) just to see the other jags and was told about the enthusiast division (much to my surprise) and entered my car in this class. (Why not?)
I definitely think the enthusiast division should be added to the shows as it gives participants an opportunity to be somewhat involved in what is going on for the day and an opportunity to learn as well. If I hadn't entered any division I would have showed up, inspected the other cars and left. Not very conducive to getting to know the other members, etc. I must say I found the group at the show to be warm and friendly and felt that this was definitely a group of people who shared my interest in jags. (Not surprisingly!)
It seemed to me that the number of divisions for a local event is way too high for the number of cars exhibited. I have always felt that winning a trophy should only occur when a minimum number of entrants are judged. I know this raises other concerns but really - getting a trophy for 1st when you are also the only is a little like cheating on your golf score. Is the trophy for you or someone else?
Yes I have won for my MG and no I won nothing at the Jag show - which if I had won something would have concerned me greatly - my xke low-mileage driver is beautiful to me but is not yet ready to win any awards!
I enjoyed seeing the other JAGs that did show up and will definitely be attending the next meet.
My suggestion for next year (for what it is worth) is that the next Concours have less divisions (or a minimum number of entrants for trophy awards), keep enthusiast, and invite other marques to enjoy the day so you have more people showing up with their cars. A larger group makes the day more inviting overall and more inviting for jaguar owners to "show off" their baby.
The few trailer queens exhibited were absolutely stunning but represent only the tiniest fraction of current Jag owners. Why focus the judging toward that group? Although they may be seen as the pinnacle of the marque (so I believe) by definition they are the pinnacle only. If the desire is to be more inclusive and broader in appeal then the events should also be focused on what most people own - the drivers and the everyday cars.

Just some thoughts from a new member.

Eliminate the Driven division. Former participants can move up to Champion if they feel they can compete (or want to compete) or move down to Enthusiast, which embraces those who don't want to compete or who want to modify their Jags, without ANY restrictions.

The problem with Driven mods - not enough are allowed, or too many are allowed (depending on you POV)

There are NO car clubs or marques (that I know of) that have 2 judging categories for concours class cars; judge everything or nothing

And obviously, Driven is not serving the purpose of the membership as determined by results of concours participation. Eliminate Driven and we can increase Champion participation (by 50% of the Driven entrants?) and the rest will go to Enthusiast where they will be just as happy (maybe moreso).

The problem with eliminating Driven Division is that there are cars that are driven and are slightly modified for that purpose. For example, if you have any car in Arizona, you have to have window tinting. Temperatures in interiors can get up to 180+ in the summer here. No matter how good your A/C is, you'll be sopping wet by the time the interior cools down.

I think there are very few things that sound better than a Jaguar engine, so I'm not one to install or upgrade a radio, but if you have something that came with an 8-track or cassette and you like to choose your own music, you are going to want a radio upgrade.

The tires installed on mid-seventies cars were an oddball transition between the old and new tire sizing systems. The sizes don't match anything before or since and the markings are definitely incorrect. Vintage tire companies have bought the molds, but the tires are really expensive compared to a similarly sized modern tire. They aren't the things you'd want to put thousands of miles per year on. Yes, owners could buy a second set of wheels and mount them on those and put them on just for concours if they wanted to be competitive, but you have the cost and the storage of a second set of 5 wheels and tires.

Those are just a few examples, and of course, you have the added work of detailing an engine bay of a car that's driven frequently. That's a lot of work, so that exception makes sense. These are exceptions that improve the driving experience or would be expected to be imperfect on a driven car.

There are other examples of Driven Division exceptions that I don't think should exist. For example, there's no reason why an incorrect wheel finish should be permitted. That's matter of personal preference and doesn't add or detract from the drivability. I think we could tighten up on things like that, but I'm not in favor of eliminating Driven Division as long as we make it "driven."

Having just returned from our second year at Jaguars on the Island (Victoria, BC) I must say they have hit it right with the Enthusiast division. It provides an avenue for new Jaguar owners to participate and validate their purchase decision. The end result is an increase in new members & their participation.

The following suggestion (idea) has been mentioned above (if I read correctly) from Steve: why not drop the entire Driven division and invite those folks to Champion division? Those already in Champion should welcome former Driven division entrants & many in Driven division already have emaculate bonnet and boot conditions (and would include those that choose to trailer).

The local club could give everyone participation trophies or, if it was my concours with 20 judged cars, I'd award 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for the top 3 scores in Champion, same in driven, and same for the top 3 people's choices for Enthusiasts Division -- 9 trophies total. If the top three Champion cars are all S1 E-types, they get the trophies.

There's nothing stopping anyone from implementing that now. There's nothing in the rules about the awarding of trophies. The current convention about awarding them for each class is something that just evolved over the years. I can't see any logical reason to perpetuate it, although I would mention you trophy structure on the entry form.

Mark Stephenson, JCCA
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I think you're right about the awards not being explicitly spelled out in the JCNA concours rule book, but it does talk about a car having a minimum point value to get 1st, 2nd or 3rd place awards, and that might be construed as a requirement.

I agree, that since ALL Jaguars are judged on an absolute point basis, then there is no reason that local awards have to be given out by class (as determined by JCNA). Points allow a direct comparison between any two cars or group of cars. So maybe the local club has to consolidate the classes for local awards, while the classes remain unaffected for national awards.

The only thing I'm uneasy about is is only one club does this, you may end up with some disgruntled participants, whereas if it was sanctioned by JCNA and all clubs did it, we'd be covered.

As a minimum, you would have to do what you said....make it clear on the registration form that local awards are given out based on combining of classes rather than the JCNA classes.

No way!!! I've been harping on the too many classes thing for four years. Just as Dick C. Back than I likened it to participation trophies in kids sports. "We don't want to have any losers so let's award everyone a trophy.

Daniel, I like the cut of your jib. ;-) Not only are you talking about the budget of a small country for trophies, but you have to overbuy for last minute entries, so the clubs end up carrying inventory for a year.

I put stats together a few years back, showing how few entries some classes had. If we combined 1A and 1B we'd still have less than one car shown for every two concours held. there are other miniscule classes like S1 XJs. My original suggestion was to combine a bunch of the small classes. Another proposal was that every time we added a class, we'd have to combine two small ones that would fit together.

Most recently I joined the if-you-can't-beat-'em-join-'em crowd with something completely in the opposite direction. Why not do away with classes altogether? At regional and continental meets, and for continental ranking, we'd recognize the best examples of each model. I mean, why shouldn't the best Mark VIII not be given the same accolades as the best E-type as opposed to being a stepchild to the other big Marks?

At the local level, the clubs would be free to award whatever they want. Everyone would still get points per the current rules. (We can work on those later.) The local club could give everyone participation trophies or, if it was my concours with 20 judged cars, I'd award 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for the top 3 scores in Champion, same in driven, and same for the top 3 people's choices for Enthusiasts Division -- 9 trophies total. If the top three Champion cars are all S1 E-types, they get the trophies.

There's nothing stopping anyone from implementing that now. There's nothing in the rules about the awarding of trophies. The current convention about awarding them for each class is something that just evolved over the years. I can't see any logical reason to perpetuate it, although I would mention you trophy structure on the entry form.

I will say that it's rewarding to have people finally come around to my way of thinking.

We are well aware of the membership problems. That's what I am working on. Not everything you see here reflects the activity of JCNA. There are issues to be solved and it does take time. There is a membership committee, of which I am the chair. I am in fairly regular contact with all of the club presidents and membership chairs. We will solve the membership problem, but its going to take time.

The trailering issue WILL BE ADDRESSED AT THE FALL BOD MTG- with the goal of having a recommendation for next years AGM in line with the Concours Committee's orig 'suggestions'.. It is already on the FALL BOD AGENDA as 'the major issue' !

Sherman D. Taffel
JCNA Secretary
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Talk about not understanding the gist of the posts above...cripes! The trailering was mentioned as an aside by Mr. Lokun and myself; indicating it was a not a real problem, just a windmill to be tilted at while the real issues with concours participation are conveniently ignored.

Like I said above. We fiddle while Rome burns. If trailering is the 'major issue' for the Fall BoD meeting, then you have your head up your proverbial you know what. The membership has made the trailering issue the 'fall on your sword' battle, while we lose the war. You guys can't seem to understand the real issue of member particpation and retention. We'll spend hundreds of man hours trying to solve a non-problem, we'll keep adding more and more classes, and the next thing you know you'll hold a Concours and you'll get 5 OFs showing up (but by God, we kept the Driven class pure!). What a joke.

Perhaps we need to rethink the entire thing.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type
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Greg- ALL!

The trailering issue WILL BE ADDRESSED AT THE FALL BOD MTG- with the goal of having a recommendation for next years AGM in line with the Concours Committee's orig 'suggestions'.. It is already on the FALL BOD AGENDA as 'the major issue' ! For those who don't know- the issue was given to the BOD as a 'Policy issue' by the JCRC- on major theme is to return the whole issue to the JCRC.

Sherman D. Taffel
JCNA Secretary

Hey, I'm doing my part. I just worked with four apprentices at our last concurs and one has already completed his test and I am waiting for two more (the last one was his first time as an apprentice).

Not to mention the dwindling pool of really qualified judges...

Are we the only car club in the world who gives their members 50 chances to get their car judged every year? Our total trophy budget must be equal to that of a small third world country!

We have just completed Jaguars-on-the-Island here in Victoria with 137 Jaguars on the field. The vast majority of these cars were registered in the Enthusiast division with just 15 in Championship concours competition and 18 in Driven. Obviously, a minority of members are interested in concours competition and to be honest, I am coming to agree that the whole concours business is becoming far too complicated in every way. It is frankly not possible to keep up with the issue of authenticity; tin addition the "watering-down" of the Driven requirments is making it virtually useless ( even permitting trailering in this class, whether the provision is used or not, makes it a joke).
Perhaps we need to rethink the entire thing.

I would go even further: get rid of the current JCNA concours structure and let all the local clubs run an "enthusiast" division at their shows. Run the national concours championship every two years at the Challenge Championship meeting. Best cars, best judges in one place!

Daniel

Stevo, I agree. I have tried at the last two AGMs and in between to collapse some of the older classes. We are seeing fewer and fewer of the older cars mostly do to attrition. Those newer cars that don't have any or much competition is due to our problems of recruiting new members, I am working on that now, but I have not been too successful so far.

Our annual concours also has come and gone.

We had 10 Champion division cars and 11 Driven division cars (a pretty thin field considering JCNA now has 42 classes, I repeat 42 classes ÔÇô but thatÔÇÖs another problem).

There were 2 trailered cars, both Champion division. So much for the 'sky is falling' Driven division trailering controversy. As typical of a good portion of JCNA membership, we can't see the forest for the trees. While we worry about the 'purity' of the Driven division with respect to the great 'trailering' debate of 2008, we have 21 cars show up for a concours with 42 classes, and EVERYONE gets a trophy because there is no competition. This year, of the 21 awards we gave out to the 21 entrants, 15 of those had no competition. THAT is the problem we should be trying to fix, not creating a mountain out of a mole hill about trailering.

After reading the ideas espoused by the JCOV and delineated in the Jaguar Journal by Doug Ingram a few months back, we instituted an 'Enthusiasts' division this year at our concours. We had 16 participants in this local division. Without these Jags, the field would have indeed been mighty sparse. The overwhelming sentiment was appreciation by those who entered this division, since now they felt they were part of the event, not relegated to some 'do not judge' display class.

We parked these cars amongst the Champion and Driven entries, making no distinction between them and the other Jags on the field. Their participation was just as highly prized as Champion or Driven division entries. We awarded 3 places for the 16 cars entered based on a popular vote by the all entrants. Next year we may have to split the cars into two classes because of the number of entries.

Honestly, the whole Driven division should be done away with as currently embodied. It would be much better to have ALL judged cars participate in Champion division and have all other cars participate in the Enthusiasts division. You are either judged completely, or not at all. And we should most definitely reduce the number of classes in Champion division from the current ridiculous 24 (based on participation) to something like 10 or so. How utterly laughable is it to give someone a first place award when there is no competition?

Any way, thanks again to the JCOV for the great idea about an 'Enthusiasts' division. EVERY club should embrace this concept.