considering a purchase

As with all luxury cars price is dependent on condition, and also just what a person is willing to pay......Art

What sad day when cars seilling new for $60k cannot get $1k.
Regards,
D Lokun

Edited on 2008-05-01 12:00:38

Hi there fellow Jag owners.
I'm new the list, this is my first post and I'm upset that this discussion about the value of a used Jag has degenerated into a war of words between two well meaning Jag owners.
I don't have anything to offer about A/C other than to say that my cousin recharged the tired A/C in my 1983 Series 3 last year with cans of refrigerant that he orders by the case.
I do agree with Will Jenkins that Christa should be careful about parting with $1000 for an older Jag. Unless you're handy and plan to do most everything yourself, they could be loaded with unseen and expensive problems. I looked at quite a few Series 3 Jags (in my opinion the best example) before I bought mine (from a fellow car club member). It wasn't cheap ($6K) but the few problems I had I was able to handle myself. The last thing left is to strip the tired original paint and shoot it again. I know that $1000 Jags here in NE are pretty much worthless.....so be careful.

Bob Stahlbush, pres.; British Motorcars of NE (2001-2006)

John Testrake, I really don't think you know why Christa "disappeared" anymore than anyone else does. You can make your guesses and others can make theirs as well but those guesses are meaningless. I think she "disappeared" because most of the recommendations here were for her to not buy the car. So if she never bought the car, she has nothing else left to say. Maybe she never did "disappear" and just doesn't feel like making any additional posts. Again, those guesses are meaningless. I highly doubt the minor dissention in this thread has turned away "many other newcomers to JCNA" as you claim. I think you're grossly exaggerating things here.

I am also totally against deleting posts and threads. Deleting posts on forums like this is BAD practice, no matter how unpleasant the content may be unless itÔÇÖs racist or illegal content. Only then should those posts be deleted.

Opinions were offered, points were raised, discussions were had, and Pascal made his post THREE days ago and your perceived problem was solved on April 26th I guess I just don't see any value or reason for your post here three days after the fact.

No offense

Come on, guys. We're just talking about cars here. I'm sure Christa is long gone from this forum. As well as many other newcomers to JCNA after reading the flame wars going on here. Because of this petty bickering, the posts on this forum have denigrated our fine club. I propose the entire thread be stricken and the parties responsible be sternly warned.

quoting William Brady:

"Please forgive any typos."

You are Hereby Forgiven and Absolved of All Typo Sins.

I think she JAMD out and left the building, Art

Has anyone noticed that Christa has "disappeared". I suppose it isn't so surprising considering the guilt she must feel for causing this "storm in a compressor". As things have settled down somewhat I will give you my tuppence worth on the AC discussion. The use of R12 in new vehicles -beginning with the 05 model year-was banned internationally as part of the Kyoto protocol. R12 was still available through aftermarket sources but at a very high price. A 30 Lb container quickly went from $80 to as high as $500. Many crafty investors purchased tons of it before the spike thinking they would make a killing on resale, some of them may still have it. At the same time the new 134 cost around $100 for 30 lbs. There were a number of problems facing the service industry when dealing with R12 cars. The "word" being circulated was that R134 was nowhere as good as R12 and that AC systems would be less effective. We were also told that no other Freon would work in R12 cars. As a result early system service and repairs became very expensive and the $12 kits sold by Pep Boys etc were withdrawn. We learned a lot and mostly by experimentation. In those days if a system leaked and it was just a hose we would flush out the system replace the faulty hose/s add the correct oil then recharge with 134. We initially could not get very good cooling but soon discovered that if we reducd the charge of 134 it cooled much better, it turned out that a system which needed 3 lbs of 12 only needed 2 lbs of 134! not only that, we were able to get outlet air as low as the high thirties, better than with 12! On my own 1973 El Camino I simply removed the R12 and recharged it with 134, it worked for a number of years! Then, within a year or so a number of companies were selling R12 substitutes -of which freeze 12 was one- for about 1/2 the price. Within this period most serious shops purchased dual freon machines ostensibly to be able to recover used freon and prevent its escape into the air. (another con). This sets the stage for the real issue of what to do, and when. AC systems should not leak, at least not when they are new, but the fact is ALL of them will leak eventually, that is a different matter. The fact is, if they do leak, then the freon will most likely have escaped before the car is brought in for service. In pre, 134 days it was very inexpensive to just "top up" the system every few months, now that it was expensive, who was going to put $100 worth of freon into a leaky system? It now became important to find and rectify the leak. Often it was a simple cause, sometimes it wasn't. There were many caring owners who did not wait for it to leak and requested that the system be converted. we did not change the compressor automatically, if it had no visable problems, we removed it, drained out the old oil and refilled it with 134 compatible oil. The system was then flushed with a solvent and recharged . On the other hand if the system had a serious problem like a bad compressor, then we did a complete conversion, hoses, dryer and expansion valve. It was often hard to make the decision of just what to do. often we would repair a small leak, a hose or something, only to have another hose leak. then another! The eventual cost of this method far exceeding the cost of a complete conversion! Jaguar owners were particularly lucky, the compressor used was the most common A6 which could be found rebuilt for around $150 and it was relatively easy to access particularly on the 12 Cyl cars. Some compact cars had very inaccessible units and could cost up to $600 his doubled the cost of the job for a car that most likely was valued at less than the cost of the vehicle! We still have R12 substitiute for those few cars that still have it but they are few and far between. Interestingly, the price of R134 has crept up and up to where it is now about $200 for a 30lb can. As for Christa! Are we dealing with a late series 3 or an early XJ40? If I were to be asked I would most likely advise against the XJ40. Please forgive any typos.

Thanks JAM, actually that's exactly an example of a "first hand" experience I was looking for, you sat in a vehicle and saw it work yourself. And please lt us know how the Aerostar works out.

Edited on 2008-04-28 11:10:06

here's a good source of pros and cons on all the alternative refrigerants, R12, R22, Freeze 12, R134a, and a few others that are circulating around.

I read in that link below that R22 (residential a/c refrigerant) is great for cars!, which of course it isn't because otherwise everybody would be using it already.

http://www.allpar.com/eek/ac.html

Edited on 2008-04-27 16:02:00

William,

I have no first-hand experience with Freeze 12 yet, other than I sat in a car at idling with Freeze 12 installed and I was impressed. Then we sat in a car at idling with R134a and I was sold on Freeze 12.

I now have 6 cans of Freeze 12, I only needed 4 but what the heck, 6 cans for $25.00 delivered wasn't a bad deal, and they come with the Labels. I plan on ordering the fittings/adapters next.

I will be experimenting with my 1992 Ford Aerostar minivan, my work vehicle. I have little to lose using the Aerostar for the experiment. The '84 XJ-6 continues on R12 without leaks since 1998, but since all systems leak some refrigerant on a yearly basis, I am preparing for the switch to Freeze 12.

Here's a link to Freeze 12's Tech Support:

http://www.freeze12.com/techsup.htm

The pressures appear to be near R12 territory, but apparently lower because less Freeze 12 needs to be used. I think reading about it from them will explain it better than me trying to. The above page has most of the questions and answers.

here's some more info:

http://www.sherco-auto.com/fr4012.htm

I don't know what happened but that last one was me.

Edited on 2008-04-27 10:24:14

Edited on 2008-04-27 9:21:18

start your own research here:

http://www.freeze12.com/

otherwise go to Google and type "Freeze 12 pros and cons" without the quotes, or any other wording like "Freeze 12 conversion"

here you can buy it in tanks: It is recommended that you do 1 car first using 6oz. cans to test it. If at the end of testing you still prefer the cooling of R134a, then by all means keep using R134a.

http://autorefrigerants.com/co00030.htm

No compressor replacement required, (unless the compressor is obviously bad), and no system flushing required.

And Freeze 12 is not the only alternative, there are others, but some are flammable and therefore dangerous. Visit the EPA website for a complete list of approved refrigerants. R134a is not a "required" refrigerant.

In any case, the ceasing of R12 production in the USA opened the doors for many new refrigerants and experimentation. I have heard of people charging their system with R22 (residential a/c refrigerant), but of course, it freezes the a/c system in a car. Then someone thought of mixing R22 with R134a and you have Freeze12.

An automotive system converted to R134a is more than adequate even when the car is not moving forawrd. The reason that most people wind up converting their R12 systems to R134a is because of the huge cost difference ($5.00/lb vs $150.00/lb) between R12 and R134a. Others are indeed concerned about depletion of the ozone layer and would rather not use R12. Science doesn't say "no such thing" on this issue. I think people are smart enough to do their own research and draw their own conclusions and make their personal choices based on that instead of following extreme statements on a car forum.

Has anyone ever used Freeze 12? I haven't and would be interested in hearing about your experiences with it especially how it compares to R134a.

Thank God we have had the Sun for a few days here in Vancouver, we all feel like doing some good work outside now. I now have the Jericco race gearbox , a hot clutch set up, driveshaft is on its way....................... Hopefully the Silver one will be ready for some agressive track driving, soon.
Better watch out as usual for the odd horse or two spinning on track................

Yes indeed it was, Kenneth, and I have complied.

I think Pascal answered their "questions" too, and to everybody's satisfaction.

In other News:

Never been to Canada, but I suppose it's freezing in winter. It can be freezing in the USA too. In my other car I do carry an ice scraper and when all else fails, a credit card does the same job.

Of course Kenneth, it would be dumb to spray water on a windshield when the temp outside is below 32 degrees. So if you are saying that Windshield Washer Fluid does NOT freeze like plain water, then I suppose that is one good reason to use it IN WINTER. But I do not drive my Jaguars in Winter weather, so the point is moot.

And since many other people don't drive their Jaguars in winter weather either, water is fine if the car is going to be kept stored.

But I do not agree that the blue colored soapy water is an absolute requirement year-round like Engine oil, or Transmission and Brake fluids, or Coolant. Blue Soapy Water is Optional, some people buy it, some people don't. That's my point. So I am entitled to give my opinion about Windshield Washer Fluid and everybody can state theirs.

Ditto for R12. No need to convert to R134a. R12 is still readily available and legal in the USA. But there are alternative refrigerants like "Freeze12" (an EPA approved mix of R134a and R22), which is gaining popularity over R134a in places where R134a simply doesn't cut the mustard.

Oh yeahh, R134a systems get "cool", but they don't get "cold" unless the vehicle is constantly moving forward. And you might be fine in Canada with R134a, year-round, but in Florida it's a different world.

It depends on the climate where you live. In my opinion, R134a is a failure. Cheap alright, because it cannot be anything else. It doesn't have the Cooling Credentials of R12. Am I worried about the Ozone Layer? No. That too is Optional. There's no Law that requires me to believe fanatical religious extremists, or fanatical enviromentalists. I do believe in Science, and Science says: "No Such Thing". If the Scientists start saying, "Yes Indeed, R12 Is The Cause Of The Hole in The Ozone Layer", THEN, and only then, I will stop using R12.

Freeze12 is a lot better than plain R134a. It's very close to R12. You can buy it on eBay if you wish. Non-flammable. Can be shipped UPS. And it is as cheap as R134a. Yes you need a new set of fittings and adapters and Labels. but you need the same for R134a so...

not that pascal needs any assistance from me but his reply was very clearly addressed to more than one person.

and if you're visiting this neck of the woods in the winter, please pull off the road before spraying your windshield with that ordinary water with a few teaspoons of alcohol in it. if it's not a frozen block of ice in it's container and hasn't shattered your pump or split the lines frozen in the nozzles, it will most certainly freeze intoa single smear across your windshield the moment you spray it and you won't be able to see a thing until you run into it or off of it..

I contacted Pascal about you. His reply is what you see above yours. Perhaps you will stop now?

Edited on 2008-04-26 16:54:29

JCNA stands for "Jaguar Clubs of North America" JAM and Canada is part of North America. JCNA has local clubs in Canada. You should know this. You are dead wrong for attacking Mr. Dickenson.

And no, my comments are not desperate most of them are the truth and others are me throwing back the grenades that you indiscriminately toss around here.

Edited now that I have seen Pascal's comments which were not there when I started this post.

Quoting Art Dickerson:

"Perhaps if you are not a JCNA Member you should take your opinions elsewhere, we only want real people on our site ."

Errr, excuse me, "Our Site" ? But THIS IS an AMERICAN site, not Canadian.
In any case I think you are a Guest here, just like everybody else.

And if it was Canadian which it isn't, do you really want "real people" like "Mr. Converter" who does not even know that R12 is LEGAL AND AVAILABLE in the USA? USA, not Canada. Nobody has mentioned Canada until you showed up saying (QUOTE) "R12 is banned in Canada". Is that supposed to put an end to the insults you assumedly endorse to "REAL PEOPLE"? Real People like William Jenkins? I mean, the man is an arse. A total Arse, no matter HOW you look at it.

Only the Administrator will stop me from replying to these insults and attacks, NOT YOU, NOT the Arse, which by the way, if you read MY replies, none of them carry any INSULTS, only QUOTES from The Arse.

So why don't YOU go give your advice to The Arse? Perhaps Maybe?

Selected Quotes from William Jenkins, aka "Mr. Converter":

1) "...as usual, you don't know what you're talking about"

2) "R12 has been banned and is illegal to use and you should know this JAM."

3) "JAM is blowing huge holes in the ozone layer, I don't know how he can sleep at night."

4) " I think JAM has been drinking just a little too much of his water/alcohol windshield washer mixture tonight!"

5) "Regarding blowhards who shoot their mouths off and post uninformed drivel and just plain wrong information JAM, you take the cake here, hands down."

6) "you are a fool."

7) "JAM either you have serious reading comprehension problems and limited mental capacity or you are just being an ass here for the sole purpose of making trouble".

8) "You must be mentally retarded JAM."

9) "Once again JAM, your limited mental capacity and inability to comprehend written English is showing through loud and clear."

.....all the above sound like a desperate man.

Perhaps if you are not a JCNA Member you should take your opinions elsewhere, we only want real people on our site .
R12 is banned in Canada.
Detergent cuts grease not pure water , even hot water which would be a waste of energy.
As Mark Twain said "common sense is not that common".
Beam me up Scotty........ Art

Once again JAM, your limited mental capacity and inability to comprehend written English is showing through loud and clear. I said this:
"I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years and have lost track of how many systems I have converted from R12 to R134a but it's safe to say that it's over 50"

Nowhere in that statement did I ever state that I am in the business of charging for my work therefore I don't have any customers. It's a shame you are unable to comprehend simple English and jump to wrong conclusions. Divide 50 by 14, (number of conversions by the number of years there are between 1994 and 2008) and tell me what you get. That clearly indicates I don't make a living at this and everyone else here knows that too. Again, you are either mentally retarded and have the inability to understand this or you are nothing more than a trouble making troll. If the case is the former then I am truly sorry that I have been impatient with you because it's not your fault that you were born stupid. If the latter is what's going on here then you're only harming yourself with your continued displays of stupidity.

As far as your question asking if I ever let any R12 into the atmosphere, most people are able to figure out that those systems were already non functioning so the R12 had already completely leaked out. A fair question, I will give you that however, I highly doubt you asked it with any other intent that to cause trouble.

Never mind me, let's talk about you:

1. Are you a JCNA member?
2. How much real, hands on experience do you have with automotive air conditioning?
3. At what level do you work on cars, just the simple things that any housewife could handle like changing oil or are you capable of performing the type of work that well equipped shops can do?
4. How long have you been working on cars yourself and at what level?
5. If you do own tools, how well equipped is your shop?

Your continued refusal to respond to these types of questions is highly suspect.

The real reason you continue to avoid answering these questions is because as I pointed out quite some time ago, you really don't know what you're talking about. That's sad because it decreases the credibility of this forum for other Jaguar owners when it becomes too polluted with your ill-informed, bad, wrong and just plain stupid advice.

Quoting William Jenkins:
"R12 has been banned and is illegal to use and you should know this JAM. The shops around here cannot get R12. I have heard that some folks can obtain R12 illegally and if they do, they're charging $150.00+ per pound. R134a is around $5.00 a pound. So why charge a R12 system with three pounds for a cost of $500.00+ only to have it leak out in a year?"

The R12 will "leak out in a year" only if YOU do the job.

Quoting William Jenkins:
"If they want the A/C fixed (meaning converting it to R134), that'll run over $1,000.00 which includes replacing the compressor. If you try and convert an old R12 system to R134 without changing the compressor, odds are very good to excellent the compressor won't last long at all".

He already has the odds and the price for the job, but he hasn't even seen the car, much less tested the a/c system to see what's wrong with it !

Quoting William Jenkins:
"I'm sorry if I mispoke earlier"

I bet you are now!

Quoting William Jenkins:
"I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years and have lost track of how many systems I have converted from R12 to R134a but it's safe to say that it's over 50."

30 years and 50 conversions worth of unneccesary conversions!

Quoting William Jenkins:
"I don't have any "customers" JAM, where did you ever get that from".

From your allegation that "I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years and have lost track of how many systems I have converted from R12 to R134a but it's safe to say that it's over 50".

And when you did those 50 conversions, did you recover the R12 or did you let it out into the atmosphere? Or did it just LEAK OUT by itself? All of it? I think the hole in your head is larger than the hole in the Ozone Layer. Maybe you need to change your Seals?

Stupid is as Stupid does, and the only STUPID comments HERE have been made by William Jenkins, alias "Mr. Converter", since the beggining of this thread.

Be careful about taking your car to this guy if you happen to be in the New England area!
He's going to try to sell you on replacing your a/c compressor and it will only cost you $1,000.00.

You must be mentally retarded JAM. At first I thought you were nothing more than a forum "troll" who is only here to cause trouble but your continued examples of outright stupidity have proven otherwise.

Are you a JCNA member? What are your background and "credentials"? I have provided my information yet you continue to avoid providing anything about your background and experience to back up your stupid statements. I'm all for allowing non-JCNA members to post anonymously here like you do up to a point JAM but there comes a time where people like you should be shown the door and you've reached it.

Your lunatic rantings are quite humorous though. I'd hate to see you banned because you do provide hours of entertainment. But just to be on the safe side, you'd be wise to keep your rantings to a minimum and stop shooting your mouth off.

I'll have to let you in on a little secret, no one believes your lies and groundless accusations. They probably don't put a whole lot of stock in your bad advice either!

Quoting William Jenkings:
"I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years and have lost track of how many systems I have converted from R12 to R134a but it's safe to say that it's over 50"

And when exactly did this conversion-obssesion started consuming you inside?

Have you been convincing your 50 customers which you don't have, to replace their compressors and get away from the "Banned and Illegal" R12 for 3 decades?

Let's do the Math Boys and Girls:

50 conversions, times $1,000.00 per conversion, is $50 Thousand Dollars, and 50 perfectly good leftover compressors which you might have resold to some 50 other unfortunate souls for another $50 thousand dollars?

What did you do with the $100 Grand? Did you contribute any of that to the Obsessive-Compulsive Anonymous ?

Let's look at William's Obsessive-Compulsive behavior:

1) compressor replacements, without even checking it of course, FOR 30 YEARS.
2) convert to R134a because R12 is "Banned and Illegal" according to Mr. Converter,
3) Top off your windshield washer reservoir with Blue Colored Soapy Water and charge them $12.00 for Shop Supplies. Why, that's a whole MONTH'S WATER BILL, BILL.

And if Doug told you he gets R12 from a supplier who gets it from a wholesaler who gets it from Brazil, would the R12 still be "suspect" ? Would you tell your Many Authorized Dealers? No matter if it was made in a DuPont plant?

Do you like Bananas? Are they Banned and Illegal too? Do you know where they come from? Are those Bananas suspect too?

Your continued refusal to answer these questions only confirms my earlier statement that you really don't know what you're talking about.

If one doesn't have the facilities, knowledge, tools and most importantly the time, they would most likely not be able to part a junk car out and make their money back. Local rules against junk cars on ones property is also another consideration depending on one's municipality.

Rationalizing buying a highly questionable car like this one and counting on recouping one's investment by parting it out is fairly risky, even for someone with the means, skills and time to undertake such a task.

Ahem, $1,000 seems okay to me , it's a Jaguar not a Yugo ... at worst, there's that much in Jag-Parts let alone for a working car - it's a Jaguar not a Lada.

I nothing to offer on A/C debate based on my ignorance but I believe that our XJ-S was converted to the "new" coolant stuff.

D. Lokun

JAM either you have serious reading comprehension problems and limited mental capacity or you are just being an ass here for the sole purpose of making trouble. The manufacture of R12 was banned in this country in 1994 and it is illegal for people to use unless they are authorized to use it. I misspoke earlier and apologized for my wrong statement so you can stop anytime now with your lies, personal attacks, lies an innuendo.

For a period of time soon after the manufacture of R12 was banned in the USA in 1994, it was almost impossible to get in this country. Of course this was long before you knew anything about the situation. It took some time to develop drop in replacements like Freeze 12 and for the suspect foreign sources like Mexico and Brazil's R12 to become easier to obtain and some times, not legally.

You put statements in quote claiming those were my words when they were not. You are a liar, plain and simple and you have no credibility. When I state a fact that I "don't have any customers" you call that "stupid." You are the "stupid" one here when you make comments like that.

Regarding another example of your stupidity, this was my original statement:
"If you try and convert an old R12 system to R134 without changing the compressor, odds are very good to excellent the compressor won't last long at all."
but you go on to lie (as usual with you) and claim I said this ""The compressor should be replaced if converting".

Once again, you are either stupid or you're a liar, you can't paraphrase someone's words to suit your own need and then claim you're quoting them. There is nothing wrong with my original statement; it is based on my personal experiences with automotive air conditioning which is far more than yours.

Are you a JCNA member? Tell us about yourself, you seem to insist on demanding "credentials" from people yet you refuse to offer any of your own.

How many different automotive air conditioning systems do you have first hand experience working on?

Your continued refusal to answer these questions only confirms my earlier statement that you really don't know what you're talking about.

You might want to consider refraining from your repeated childish rants and foaming at the mouth as you're only continuing to make yourself look like a fool. Another option is for you to continue on your merry way because it only solidifies and justifies my criticisms of you in the eyes of a disinterested third party. Your choice......

Quoting William Jenkins:
"I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years and have lost track of how many systems I have converted from R12 to R134a but it's safe to say that it's over 50"

Sure, and you didn't know that R12 is still available, right? And you did not know R12 is Legal to use, right? And you need Doug to "please tell you WHERE you can get it so you can tell your Many Authorized Dealers", right? (did something here spelled M.A.D. ?)

It seems to me you have lost track not just of how many systems you've unnecesarily converted, but you have lost track of what you might have put in them, right Willie?
Might you have charged some of those systems with windshield washer fluid too?

You might go to your local Vocational or Diesel school and get a refresher before you come here and open your mouth to make those kind of stupid statements?

In the meantime, everyone in the New England area should beware about this guy, which I shall rename Mr. Converter. I would not trust my Jaguar to such an individual.

Any one that speaks of anything Jaguar as a "piece of junk", or negating a "43 year old Jaguar recommendation", certainly is suspect. Jaguar Cars does not put out junk, and they have a Track Record since the 1930's. The facts speak for themselves about this guy.

Quoting Wiliam Jenkins:

"The idea of ÔÇ£adding a few spoonfuls of alcoholÔÇØ is by your own admission a FORTY THREE year old recommendation (from 1965). Did it ever occur to you that the world of automotive windshield washer fluids has advanced since 1965?"

Yes, a 43 year old recommendation from a company with CREDENTIALS, like Jaguar Cars, and still used today, (see the link below) but I have never said "as a substitute for windshield washer fluid" but as a De Icer. I only use water in my windshield washers, I believe windshield washer Blue Colored Soapy Water is a racket. You can add half a drop of Blue Food Coloring to the water and a few drops of dish washing detergent and you end up with the same thing. And it will stain the paint in the same way as the one you like to endorse so much.

http://www.diylife.com/2007/11/23/homemade-windshield-de-icer/

On the Matter of Stupid:

Stupid is as Stupid does, and the only stupid comments here, have been made by you.

For example:

Stupid comments like "R12 Has been Banned and is Illegal to use..." What could be more stupid than that? HELLO?

Stupid comments like: "The compressor should be replaced if converting".

Stupid comments like: "I don't have any "customers" JAM, where did you ever get that from"

And more stupid comments like: "I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years". But he doesn't have any customers, but he has many Authorized Dealers that he must inform about where R12 can be obtained, if only Doug would please tell him.

???? Do I detect some lose screws in this guy's cylinder HEAD????

If you're too stupid to recognize my humor regarding the ozone layer then there's not much hope for you.

Regarding blowhards who shoot their mouths off and post uninformed drivel and just plain wrong information JAM, you take the cake here, hands down.

I have been working on automotive air conditioning for over 30 years and have lost track of how many systems I have converted from R12 to R134a but it's safe to say that it's over 50. Doug didn't "call my bluff" as you say, you are a fool.

Are you even a JCNA member or do you just like hearing yourself babble?

Quoting William Jenkins:

"R12 has been banned and is illegal to use and you should know this JAM. The shops around here cannot get R12. I have heard that some folks can obtain R12 illegally and if they do, they're charging $150.00+ per pound. R134a is around $5.00 a pound. So why charge a R12 system with three pounds for a cost of $500.00+ only to have it leak out in a year?"

Do you all read what HE says? He is asserting that R12 is ILLEGAL TO USE and essentially that any shop using is getting it ILLEGALLY. So most every a/c shop in the USA from North To South must be breaking the law according to Mr. The Expert?

Does this guy KNOW what he is talking about?

If your R12 leaks in a year like he says, then you know HE did the job, it wasn't me,
because my XJ-6 has had ONE charge of R12 since 1998. Still freezing cold, like I like it. If it has leaked any, I haven't noticed one bit.

Now you know who's the one who doesn't know what he's talking about !

Mr. The Expert says his Jaguar radio was a piece of junk. Maybe he couldn't figure it out?
Jaguar radios are some of the best factory radios ever put in cars. I'm still using the original one that came in my '84.

I don't drink alcohol, but curiously I thought you were having a Delirium Tremens episode, because alcoholics become cantankerous like you have done here.

I'm not being entertained, maybe you are because you are now trying to be funny, it was you who said that "you have converted many a/c systems to R134a", HOW MANY? and talking about "My Authorized Dealers", as if you had so many. Are you some kind of fool? And do you have any CREDENTIALS ? For example, I know that Doug Dwyer HAS credentials and I respect his word when he contradicts what I say, but DO YOU? You are no scientist either to be preaching about the Ozone Layer, and you are no Jaguar Engineer either to contradict the Factory Service Manual. In other words, you have NO credentials to be mouthing off so much. Have you been trained in automotive air conditioning? Have you any schooling in automotive air conditioning? Or do you play it by ear? In other words, WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS? DO YOU HAVE ANY? HELLO?

so if you don't have any, it's you who's pretending to be a know-it-all, and by your statements about R12 it should be obvious to people like Doug that you don't know what you're talking about. He called your bluff. I think you are some kind of fool, there's one like you in every forum.

I think JAM has been drinking just a little too much of his water/alcohol windshield washer mixture tonight!

I don't have any "customers" JAM, where did you ever get that from. Once again you are showing just how ignorant and uninformed you are.

And no more whining about "flaming" from you, that dog won't hunt. Stating fact is not flaming. If you don't like being criticized for being ignorant and uninformed them stop being ignorant and uninformed and jumping to wrong conclusions. Stating "as usual, you don't know what you're talking about" once again is a simple statement of fact, not an "attack" as you keep whining about. You don't know what you're talking about when you claim I have "customers" because no where have I ever said I own, run or work on cars for money. I am not in the car repair business. Once again, if you don't like being criticized for being wrong then stop being wrong.

As usual, you don't know what you're talking about but please do carry on, you're providing many of us with a great deal of entertainment making yourself look foolish!

OHH The Ozone Layer caca! hahaa! one of those! Why, even scientists are denying that the hole in the ozone layer is caused by industrialization exhausts or gases, but no, Only YOU know the Absolute Truth. Never Mind, I don't care to hear your arguments, I only believe Scientists, and you are NOT a scientist.

And according to you, Jaguar was wrong in recommending adding alcohol to windshield washer water 40 years ago if the water froze in the container. Funny, people still do that 40 years later, but of course, YOU know better.

And of course, William is a purveyor of adding Windshield Washer Fluid, ( blue colored soapy water), as opposed to just adding plain tap water, I bet he pushes the stuff to his customers or else he refuses Service. And he says R134a cools fine even though car OWNERS say IT DOESN'T! Do you make their systems COLDER when they complain? Or are ALL your customers HAPPY? RIGHT! I bet what you'll say!

And he insists that R12 is BANNED AND ILLEGAL IN THE USA, and that a compressor change is neccessary to eliminate R12, when people who DO KNOW, like Doug, have told him TWICE that it is not necessary.

And of course, he is only reading my replies, not anyone else's, certainly not Doug's who has told him clearly that he is WRONG. TWICE.

Well there you have it, someone who made the first attack by saying, I QUOTE BEFORE HE EDITS IT: "JAM, you obviously have very little first had experience with converting air conditioning systems and as usual, you don't know what you're talking about".

"AS USUAL YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT"? Is THAT NOT AN ATTACK for which you ought to get your behind kicked out of here??

what gives you any right to "AS USUAL" ME? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? This is a public FORUM, Not your own personal BLOG. Show some RESPECT mister, and you will get some. I've never had any problem here with ANYONE but you because it has been YOU who has attacked me, and you can bet that you will get a reply from me everytime you attack, because you will not intimidate me.

If Pascal is watching this thread, I'm sure he'll see clearly who started attacking who.

Now Christa knows where and to who NOT to take her new XJ-40, and I hope she and her husband buys it.

And to Christa:

1) filling your windshield washer bottle with Water is just fine, in any car, don't waste money in that Blue Colored Soapy Water. It's just a money-maker for certain people.
Blue Soapy Water. Water as in AGUA.

2) Do not believe everything you hear about the air conditioner in your car, it's a way for certain garages to put a price on a repair without even checking the system first or even SEEING THE CAR!!

3) You have little to lose by buying that car for that kind of money. You could even make a profit selling it in 6 months! If the car is in good running order, ignore the False Prophets and drive the car home. You could be pleasantly surprised. I know I was when I bought my first Jag. There's plenty of people willing to help with questions, people who don't have an agenda and who do not try to impose as you were insisted by this cantankerous individual: I quote: "Once again Christa, I would highly recommend against buying this car". As if once was not enough, he actually became anxious that you might buy it ! hahaa!

it's your decision, so whatever you do, we'll be around to give you our unbiased opinions and then some.

Edited on 2008-04-24 11:43:47

Art, I think you guys on the B.O.D. could use a guy like JAM.

Of course he'd actually have to join the JCNA but once we get past that minor detail, I think you guys would love him notwithstanding his complete disregard for the ozone layer!

Doug, we could use a man like you on the B.O.D. @ JCNA, Art

We've converted several in our shop with no problems. Its quite common, really. R134 worked fine in my XJS. Its also true that the R134 doesn't cool quite as well so what works well in the NW may not be satisfactory in Dallas in August. There are variables in all of this so blanket statements are best avoided.

Personally I think it best to stick to R12 as long as you can get it. If you have a leaky system, though, the simple matter of expense may dictate otherwise.

As for attacks, well, we are all intelligent and articulate enough to express opinions without causing the recipient to feel he has been attacked. How our opinions come off to the reader is largely a matter of how we choose our words. Frankly, I've seen an awful lot of "reacting" (as opposed to discussion) on these forums the last few days.

Cheers
DD

JAM,

You are the one who is ÔÇ£attackingÔÇØ here and this is not the first time you have behaved poorly here.

You are wrong and out of line when you keep repeating your lies that I and others have ÔÇ£personal agendasÔÇØ when we express an opinion or state facts that you donÔÇÖt like especially when youÔÇÖre wrong.

I am not ÔÇ£attackingÔÇØ your opinion that she should buy the car. You canÔÇÖt seem to differentiate between someone expressing an opinion that is different from yours and an ÔÇ£attack.ÔÇØ You really need to work on that.

Repeating your falsehoods doesnÔÇÖt make them right and no one here is supporting your wrong statements.

How many automotive air conditioning systems have you converted from R12 to R134a and had them not perform satisfactorily? IÔÇÖll ask Mr. Lovell and Mr. Dwyer the same question, Bob and Doug, please share with us your first hand examples of R12 to R134a conversions that performed unsatisfactorily or not at all because JAM needs clarification here.

The idea of ÔÇ£adding a few spoonfuls of alcoholÔÇØ is by your own admission a FORTY THREE year old recommendation (from 1965). Did it ever occur to you that the world of automotive windshield washer fluids has advanced since 1965? When others and I disagreed with your advice, you proceeded to accuse us all of having ÔÇ£personal agendasÔÇØ and became nasty and offensive just like youÔÇÖre doing here which is wrong and out of line.

I would suggest that it is you JAM who could get banned from this site for your continued violation of the rules. You need to work on that too.

the idea of adding a few spoonfuls of alcohol to the windshield water container was not invented by me, it is clearly specified in the Jaguar Shop and Service Manual of my 1965 S type. So why don't you go to Jaguar Cars and argue with THEM based on your infallible know-it-all wisdom ?

I am also giving Christa MY OPINION that she should buy the car. The difference is that you are attacking my opinion because you have an agenda of replacing compressors unneccesarily. You've been told over and over that R134a does not work like R12 and yet you keep insisting that it does, when others in the know, disagree.

You are distorting the statements what I write here to suit your attacks.

I conclude William, it is you who does not know what you are talking about, and frankly, I don't want to bother arguing with people like you.

So go ahead and keep flaming, it is you who could get banned from this site, not me.
In other words, if you don;t like someone's OPINION, all you have to do is STATE YOUR OWN without attacking anybody. Go back and READ THE RULES mister!

I agree Art, meanwhile JAM is blowing huge holes in the ozone layer, I don't know how he can sleep at night.

Bob Lovell knows I'm really a big leftie at heart, right Bob?

I believe the new refrigerant is better for our world, we need better for our world,better for our families and our friends. R12 would leak out I believe if you did not routinely use the air,
God Bless the World, and Winston Churchill.................. Art

Again Bob, in every automotive application I have first hand experience with, no one can tell the difference after converting to R134a. In some cases I have noticed a very slight difference while stopped at a red light but the second you accelerate, the system cools just as good with R134a as it did with R12. It is indeed "worth the effort" most times because of the huge cost difference between R134a and R12, $4.00 per pound for R134a and $150.00+ per pound of R12. On one of my cars, I wanted more than anything to keep it R12 but after losing the charge twice in two months to leaks, failing hoses and blown O-rings, I lost $900.00 worth of R12. Once I converted that car to R134a, everything was fine. You do the math......

I stand by my original statement.

Yowza All,
My refigeration experience is limited to cars and 70 ton AC units for process cooling at our plant but one thing is fact.
R134a in a R12 type compressor is considerably less efficient by abot 20% if and that's IFeverything is in good shape to start with. Not worth the effort most times.
Later, Bob Lovell

The manufacture of R12 in this country has indeed been banned since 1994. It's illegal for someone who doesn't have the proper credentials to purchase and use it. I'm sorry if I mispoke earlier. I've never used R12 from Mexico or Brazil but I do know of people who have and they have had bad luck with R12 from those countries. In these cases, the stuff just plain didn't work, who knows if it was even R12 since it's not regulated here.

And no JAM, I don't have a "personal agenda" as you have implied, I'm simply giving Christa the advice she asked for which is based on my experience with automotive air conditioning over the past 30 years which is far more than the one "course" you took and the ONE system you've worked on where you got lucky. The bottom line is R12 is FAR MORE expensive than R134a and a majority of people in the business would agree with my assessment and advice rather than yours.

Are you still recommending that people use a few drops of alcohol in water as a substitute for windshield washer fluid? What is it with you, when someone offers advice that contradicts something you wrongly believe, you accuse them of having a "personal agenda?" Kinda makes you look foolish and unfortunately for you, your track record here speaks for itself.....

hi Doug,

I would expect R12 to be expensive in the West Coast, since everything else is !!

in the South & SouthEast, it is readily available in most a/c shops and no such thing as "banned and illegal". Brazil and Mexico continue to manufacture R12. Brazil in particular, does not answer to the EPA or to the FDA or any other agency for that matter!! Whether they are supplying the US I have no clue, but I don't doubt it either.

I may not know what I'm talking about but at least I don't sound like I have an agenda to recommend unneccesary conversions and compressor replacements to unwary consumers based on a "banned and illegal" OPINION.

To become certified in automotive refrigeration, I attended a 5-day a week, 12-week course of training at Nashville Tech in Nashville Tennessee in 1998. I was fed up with taking my XJ-6 to the Firestones and Goodyears and nobody could make my a/c work for more than 30 days, so I decided to learn about automotive refrigeration and fix it myself.

At the end of the training, in September 1998, I rebuilt my Delanair II system (with R12 of course), and it has not leaked or failed since. Sure, some evaporative loss is to be expected in 10 years, but my system is still operating as intended. I haven't added any R12. The trick I found, is to replace the $25.00 Delco/GM Expansion Valve, not the compressor. And by the way, I don't care for modern Orifice Tube systems, Expansion Valves are better.

I am now working on a A/C system for my '65 S type, with a Harrison compressor and R12 of course. And for those who are so fixed on the R134a, there are alternative refrigerants, R134a is neither mandated nor required, it's just a cheap refrigerant.

Try Freeze12 if you want close to R12 performance but a less expensive gas, and don't forget the Labels.

"Almost impossible to find" isn't quite the same as "banned and illegal to use". :-)

Lots of shops simply made a decision to stop using it. One leaky fitting on your equipment and you've lost a big investment overnight---or maybe even a matter of hours. Not to mention that its hard to be price competitive with R12 when other shops are quoting repair work using R134.

I'll get with our parts guys and find out who they are buying it from.

And what I said was "well over" $1000 for 30 pounds..... :-). Yes, you have to be licensed to sell it,at the wholseale level at least, and certifed to install it at the shop level. You can certify yourself easily---even online, I think.

Cheers
DD

Edited on 2008-04-23 0:55:16

Well, maybe out on the west coast Doug but here in the northeast, it's almost impossible to find and when people do, it costs a minimum of $150.00 per pound and that was four years ago. It's possible that requirements vary from state to state but I'm fairly certain that it was a federal EPA decision to ban its use starting in 1994.

If you can find me a 30lb canister for $1,000.00 PLEASE let me know so I can tell my authorized dealers about it because they can't get it for that here, unless they're misleading me. Doesn't one have to be licensed to obtain it legally?

R12 is perfectly legal and readily available in the USA. As JAM says, quite expensive, though. We still use it at our shop...well over $1000 for a 30 pound tank.

It is illegal to vent it into the atmosphere, and you must be certified to buy, sell, or use it. No new R12 has been manufactured in the USA since 1996 and smuggling it from other countries is, of course, illegal. But, at the end of 1996 there were huge....vast, really....reserves on hand.

Cheers
DD