Driven Class Trailering

I'm strongly opposed to this rule change. It's contrary to the objective and spirit of the Driven Class. It's obviously very inequitable. Why should I driven my car hundreds of miles through bad weather (yes, I've done that many times!), with only very little time to prepare it, and be placed next to someone who may have spent a week or more preparing his car and now rolls it out of a trailer onto the show field to be judged as a "driven" car? With this advantage given to trailered cars it won't be long before the competitive spirit will make trailering necessary to join the winner's circle. It will destroy the Driven class and make it the same as the Championship Class, except that under-bonnet and boot won't be judged....sort of a "Championship-Lite". This change will discourage those who actually drive their antique Jaguars. That makes no sense to me. My Jaguars will remain in the barn while this rule change is in effect.

Hey.

My name is Jane Maupin and my husband Dave wants me to read all these messages which I do out of politeness. I am not a car enthusiast, but I want Dave to finish his part of our income tax, and I am totally tired of this debate. It seems to me that, if there is a Driven Class, then the cars ought to be driven. Period. End of story.

Nevertheless, choosing to participate in the Driven Class has most to do with philosophy. The very word, "driven", has special meaning for some. It is a metaphor for all that goes into participating in an event. It symbolizes a connectedness not only to the sound and feel of the machine but to other like-minded members of the driven class.

Jane Maupin

Mr Fulton, I take exception to your statement that I ((didn't have the balls have the balls to make the proper, and only correct decision, to disqualify the cars. So I guess we can't say someone cheated when they were given the blessings of the head judge, eh?)) I am the Chief Judge for NGJC at Gainesville. I was not aware of any Driven division cars trailered to our Concours and NO ONE approached me stating that there were. We appreciated your bringing your car and showing it for Display Only and winning the Peoples Choice Award. I also noted that you trailered the car to Gainesville. Last year my XK150 was invted to Hilton Head. It was too much of a risk for me to that this Champion Division car on a road trip tthat far as I don't own a trailer. I rented an open U-Haul for a grand total of 70 bucks and was able to take my car and take advantage of an opportunity I'll never have again. Someone made a statement that the rules are more relaxed for Drivien Division. This is NOT the case for areas that would be affected by trailering a car. I inspect the exterior and interior of a Driven Division car for condition and cleanliness EXACTLY the same that I do for a Champion Division car. A ding is a ding and a chip is a chip. I totally agree with Steve Kennedy's statements. There is no way I can enforce a no trailering rule if the guy parks his trailer at the motel and then drives to the venue. Sorry for this post but I work very hard as a CJ and find your comment offensive.

Steve W.,

With all due respect (and you are due a lot, given the time you've put into JCNA), you seem to be missing the point. There was baby thrown out, but it isn't the new trailering rule, it was the intent and purpose of the Driven Division, "Because the Entries in this division are driven, the requirements are less demanding...."

If you're going to evaluate this decision based on participation, then those of us who oppose the rule have little choice but to withdraw from Driven Division for the 2008 season. By participating, we are tacitly supporting the rule changes. It's not a case of "taking our ball and going home," it's the only avenue drivers have to register their displeasure. If there's a significant drop in Driven Division participation, we'll have an easier job reversing this astoundingly shortsighted rule change in 2009.

Let me be very clear that I'm not saying don't attend concours. That hurts the clubs and all the people who volunteer to organize the events. Either proudly enter your driven Jaguar in Champion Division (because really, what's the difference?) or kick back, relax, and enjoy the concours as part of the display contingent.

Steve,
As the agenda for the AGM is still posted on the JCNA web site it is very easy to see by what is unlined in yellow that there was NO proposal concerning the trailering of the driven class cars only that the chief judge or an assistant should make certain that all judged cars were driven into place. As there was no proposal on trailering driven class cars and no AGM discussion on changing the printed meeting agenda and proposals I now am wondering if the trailering issue should have been addressed at all.

The original proposal was designed to help promote attendance at the CC and other major events. I don't have a problem with that. But opening up the driven division to trailered cars for other events is just plain dumb. I am not surprised that this has happened. I witnessed trailered cars in the driven division at Franklin and at Gainesville. And I am told that the same occurred at Indy. When confronted, the head judges just didn't have the balls to make the proper, and only correct decision, to disqualify the cars. So I guess we can't say someone cheated when they were given the blessings of the head judge, eh?
We will see how this all turns out this year. I promise that I will do all that I can to bring this before the next AGM. It's a horribly bad move that has to be corrected.
Mike

Trailering in the Driven Division
To all of you who are upset about the rule concerning Trailering in the Driven Division. The following language was presented by the JCRC to the JCNA BoD for consideration at the 2008 board of directors meeting.

6. Entries to be Driven to their Assigned Parking Positions / Trailering
Trailering to the Concours site is allowed only for Champion and Special Division Entries. Trailering or towing to the Concours site is NOT allowed for Entries in the Driven Division. The Chief Judge or his designees must conform that all Entries are driven, under their own power, to their assigned parking positions in the judging area ÔÇô the objective is to simply prove/observe that the Entry runs and is drivable. Entries not meeting this rule are ineligible for the dayÔÇÖs Concurs competition and shall not be judged. Entries shall not be trailered directly to their assigned parking positions and offloaded.

The JCRC's Report left the decision whether and how to change the trailering rule up to the Board as a "policy" issue, as can be seen from the following comments:

As noted in the JCRC Report:
ÔÇ£JCRC solicited input from its members and a few considerations surfaced; however, it was quickly decided that any change in the trailering policy was not a JCRC judging Rule matter but a JCNA policy matter more properly addressed by the Concours Committee or the Board of Directors. The no-trailering rule essentially relies on an unwritten honor system and is difficult, if not totally impractical, to police or enforce.ÔÇØ

After substantial discussion, considering virtually all of the arguments raised by those who have now come out in opposition to the changes, a majority of the Board members agreed that the following language should be submitted to the AGM delegates for discussion and consideration:

Trailering to the Concours site is allowed in all Divisions. The Chief Judge or his designees must confirm that all Entries are driven, under their own power, to their assigned parking positions in the judging area ÔÇô the objective is to simply prove/observe that the Entry runs and is drivable. Entries not meeting this rule are ineligible for the dayÔÇÖs Concurs competition and shall not be judged. Entries shall not be trailered directly to their assigned parking positions and offloaded.

This rule change was presented to the delegates at the Saturday AGM. After a lengthy discussion by the delegates, including from those opposed to the change, a vote was taken and the rule change to remove the trailering restriction for the Driven Division passed by a substantial majority and approved for the 2008 concours season by substantially more than a 2/3 vote of the delegates.

A number of people have demanded that the Board of Directors now step in and suspend or change this rule. The Board does not have the authority to take any such action. The JCNA By-laws provide as follows:

ARTICLE IV. MEETINGS

Section 10. Changes Reserved to Meetings. No competition rules change shall take effect unless approved by majority vote at a meeting as defined in Article IV, Section 1 and Section 3 [i.e., an AGM]. Any such changes shall take effect in the season following enactment unless specifically approved by the delegates by a 2/3 majority.

The rule was voted on and approved at the 2008 AGM. It cannot be changed until the 2009 AGM when any proposals to modify the new rule can be voted on by the AGM delegates.

If the 2008 AGM rule change is not satisfactory to JCRC or the membership, JCRC should submit a proactive trailering proposal for the Driven Division to be voted upon at the 2009 AGM.

Should JCRC undertake a proactive rule change for the Driven Division, I believe they should take into consideration the following points:

-Some Entrants may have both a Driven Division Jaguar and a Slalom or Champion Division Jaguar they want to bring to the event

-Some Entrants may live 100 miles or more from concours sites and not want to drive that far.

-Some Entrants do not feel it is practical to drive a Jaguar that is 30 or more years old a distance of 100 or more miles or on roads that are hazardous

-The chief judge may have knowledge of specific reasons an entrant has in order to authorize the trailering of a Jaguar to the event.

Hopefully, we can all work together to see how the new trailering rule affects competition this year. Obviously, we hope that the dire circumstances expressed by some members will not arise. Let's see how things go this year and we can always revisit this issue at the next AGM, if need be.

And, NO, such a proposal would not prevent someone in Champion Division from trailering and showing in Driven any more than the previous rule would prevent someone in Driven from dropping their trailer in an empty parking lot and driving their car to the show. Of all of the feedback so far, there has not been anyone wanting to switch from Champion Class to Driven because of this ruling.

Steve Kennedy
President JCNA

I think that anyone arguing about trophies, pro or con, is missing the point. Reread the mission statement of JCNA as indicated on page i of the Concours Rules. "...to promote enhanced driving standards and to encourage skillful driving on the public highways; to promote interest in motoring activities, classes, exhibitions, publications and motor sports related to the marque."

The purpose of Driven Division is to promote and encourage driving. It is so stated in the opening paragraph of the Driven Division section of the rule book. "Because the Entries in this division are driven, the requirements are less demanding and only their interiors and exteriors are judged for authenticity, condition, and cleanliness."

If there is no requirement that the cars be driven, why have a Driven Division? That seems so patently obvious, that I can't believe the argument needs to be carried any further. Can anyone give a succinct rebuttal to that logic? Is the JCRC going to reword the definition of Driven Division to "Because the Entries in this division are supposed to be driven..." or "Because we hope the Entries in this division are driven..."?

To argue that because a few people cheat we should rescind the rule is equally illogical. Do we eliminate marriage because some spouses cheat. Rules exist to define boundaries and correct errant behavior. What the AGM delegates who voted for this short-sighted measure have done is make trailer queens eligible for Driven Division. They've redefined Driven to Champion Lite.

For the drivers, it's not about trophies, it's about their love and appreciation for and encouragement of an integral part of the Jaguar experience - DRIVING! But you get someone with a 99.9 trailer queen switching at the last minute from Champion to Driven because they can snatch a first there vs. a third in Champion, and it will suddenly become all about trophies. It's going to be about how someone who never drives their Jaguar can beat people who drive their cars in a division called "Driven." That's why people are mad.

Mark Stephenson, JCCA

P.S. Someone said this was passed by an overwhelming majority of the delegates present. This is probably an indelicate question, but was that actual delegates present or delegates including their proxies. it would be interesting to know how many individuals voted for this rule change and how many against. I'm curious if the two-thirds vote necessary to immediately implement this rule would have been achieved if it was one-man, one vote. Would it have even passed?

The Judge's Concours Rules Committee (JCRC), and its members present at the AGM, did not propose or support the change allowing trailering in all Divisions.

Dick Cavicke
Chair, JCNA, JCRC

Gerald: I did not mean to insinuate that you voted for the rule change. I only meant that the reps. and JCNA govt body are the ones that affect change, not banter on this forum. You stated your opinion eloquently.

Quite frankly, I'm sorry I ever posted an opinion on this subject as it does not pertain to me.
I respectfully bow out.

Patrick

Patrick,
As one of the two AGM represenatives of Mike's club (Carolina Jaguar Club), I was in full agreement of the ORIGINAL proposal offered for discussion at the AGM regarding very limited reduction of the requirements of the Driven Division " to permit trailer-ing to : 1)- The Challenge Championship or Regional events -ONLY - AND if: 2)- the Entry is at least 30 years old; 3)- The Entry must have a recent history of Driven Division competition; AND 4)- The Entry must certify that the event is more than 400 miles from where the Entry is normally garaged." When the amendment was motified to permit trailer-ing to ALL events -regardless, I (and my CJC counterpart) could NOT support this amendment and argued against it on the "floor". As has been expressed in many of the discussions on this matter in this Forum, I am afraid it is a "bad / wrong" solution to the the stated hope of increasing attendance at the various club Concours. The represenatives of Mike's club therefore voted AGAINST both the amendment and the original "suggestion" in hopes that it would fail to pass and allow a more reasonable solution to perhaps be offered next year. (I can also assure you that the JCRC and Concours Committee DID NOT advocate passage of this Concours Policy change.) As for myself, (although I have a trailer to use for trailer-ing for service), I will continue to drive my '56 XK 140 OTS to every Concours I attend if within 500 miles from home, and if weather (and wife) permits, I may even try extending that distance. After all, as many others have stated, the joy of owning one of these great cars, is the joy of driving it..

Mike, no offense but you need to get a clue.

I've "read the rules" and all the rules in the world won't change people's behavior. Similar situations happen in preservation class, the rules specifically say that entrants CANNOT restore or replace parts but we all know it happens and just because there's a rule doesn't mean people will always follow it.

Forgive my insensitivity to your concerns here but I drive my car over 500 miles and enter it in Championship Class. I could care less if I lose to someone who trailered their car and I don't think it's worth whining about.

William,
No offense, but you need to read the rules.

There was never anything in the past that prevented anyone from trailering a car to a nearby location, unloading it and driving it on to the field.

Another thing to consider, how many instances of this perceived inequity REALLY happen, maybe a handfull per year in the entire country?

I really don't think this discussion is worth wasting bandwidth here.

I would suggest directing your energies at more worthwhile matters regarding concours not this, clear bras or in-transit damage. They've all been beaten to death.

Patrick,
I didin't mean to insinuate that you are the bad guy. You have to understand that I am passionate about people who drive and enjoy their cars. And you have to understand that I accept the rules as they are. Give Peaches a break?. I don't think so. Yeah, maybe I have a special car, but the rules are the rules and I, for one, would not expect any special treatment.

Well, you see, that's just it. Odometer readings have NEVER been required for driven vehicles, so what's the difference. How would I know if a car has actually been driven to our concours from San Francisco? How would YOU know?

I'm not the bad guy here, Mike. Perhaps you should question how your club representative voted, or even the rules committee. And maybe its time to give Peaches a break for a change. Is that all JCNA has come down to? Points and judging and what's fair or not? Or is it about preserving the marque?

Patrick

Patrick,
Inevitable my ass! I cannot begin to believe that our rules committee has approved this. One of my goals has to take my car on a long distant trip or tour. If she breaks down, than so be it. But I am confident that she will get me where I want to go.
In 2005 I attended the CC in Georgia. I signed up for all the events. On Thursday I ran the slalom, on Friday we did the rally, and my Bride did an excellent job of navigating and we are still together. Unfortunately, my right rear half shaft failed in the parking lot at our hotel after the Friday night festivities. I was registered in the Concours Championship Division for the next morning. I was told that I could "push" the car on the field for judging. I declined to do so because the rules state that the cars must be driven on the field. You can call me a purist or an SOB or whatever. I understand your logic about trailering and I think that this is all geared to the Championship Challenge. But if someone has a vintage Jaguar and they want to participate, they have to understand the options. We cannot make special exemptions for a chosen few. The only way that this trailering issue would be permissible is that the owner would have to provide odometer readings, and that might create another can of worms.
Mike

Hi Mike - I am with you on this decision. Driven Class allowing trailer queens?
We now have an inequitible situation for this concours class. There should be an expansion of the rules, providing a Driven-Trailered class and the original Driven class.

I think I understand the basic rationale - to encourage greater participation in Concours events? But the new rule (IMHO) is inequitable.

Regards,
Dwight Curtiss
JDWR/NWA

Well, it was probably inevitable. A driven E-Type or SS or Mark 2 is quite different from bringing a driven XJS or XK8. Even though I have a trailer queen, there would be no way I would even consider taking one of these old Jaguars for a very long drive for a number of reasons.

For one, reliability. Even the best maintained driver can suddenly quit at the most inopportune time and in the most desolate place. And if itÔÇÖs an OLD Jaguar, forget about getting a part to fix it anytime soon, unless you bring a trunk full of parts and tools.

Second is security/safety. You drive an old E-Type into the wrong part of any city, and then break down, youÔÇÖd better be carrying. This is not the same safe country it used to be.

So I think most people who regularly ÔÇ£driveÔÇØ their classic Jaguar would have second thoughts on a prolonged drive for the sake of a concours. I seriously doubt youÔÇÖll see ÔÇ£newÔÇØ cars on trailers. If anything, it gives the classic Jag owner just a bit of peace of mind. Far too many uninsured jerks and wierdos on the road. I donÔÇÖt have a problem with the rule change.