Jaguar is gone....

TaTa is the best thing to happen to Jag since the Leaper.

Oh, i don't hate modern cars...

although, my father has a 2001 VW Passat 4motion wagon which just overheated this morning... has 130,000kms or 85,000 miles. I had to rescue him in my 1991 Jaguar XJ6 which has 240,000kms or 150,000 miles - he thinks Jaguar's are really unreliable!

Edited on 2008-04-08 14:25:39

I don't hate modern cars - I just don't buy them unless it's a winter beater. I thought Bristol would be poo-poo(ed) for their Chrysler engines.

How funny you mention Bristol Cars, I nearly bought one a few years ago, would have had to import one myself from England.

Their quality is not as advertised, seeing it in person, the panel gaps are just enormous, and the interior guages and controls are of a poor quality - probably swiped from a Ford or Toyota.

Those who hate modern cars... PERIOD... shall not look to a modern car to mimic an older one, but shall instead purchased a used car! that was easy!

If all else fails, a Morgan might be your cup of tea, they are lovely cars to drive in any weather - if you are brave enough.

For those who would not miss Ford, I would agree. Ford hasn't done anything more than continue Jaguar perfection. The Series 3 was the pinnacle of the XJ design, and Ford has come back to that same design over and over again, namely the x300, x308, x350. Jaguar was a bespoke manufacturer to begin with, the XJ, and the XJS. Expanding the line up to include S and X, and now we see the X being discountinued, and the S becoming the XF. In the 21st century, plans to make Jaguar a high volume manufacturer has ceased, and we now have a brand name which aims to sell 100,000 a year. Furthermore, Ford having had nearly 20 years, hasn't made Jaguar a profitable company... just as you think Jaguar is off to a great start selling a certain model, another promising model is shown to great acclaim and then placed on hold with regards to development.

Based on the article below Ford took a bath on the sale of Jaguar / Land Rover to Tata (just as Daimler did with the sale of Chrysler). Lincoln has not been competitive with Cadillac for many years now. At least Aston Martin found a decent home (and may James Bond always drive one!).

Tata will need to convince a younger buying public that Jaguar stands for prestige, excitement, and innovation. Ford relied entirely on Jaguar's history to the point where most people under fifty consider Jags to be expensive European Buicks that are no longer competitive in a Mercedes / BMW / Audi / Lexus world. The XF is, at least, a step in the right direction. I love the way old Jags look and feel but brand new models should not try to mimic them. Jag needs to create beautiful new cars that will become future classics (preferably, in my opinion, without the electronic over-kill that the Germans are currently indulging in).

BMW has proven that a relatively small auto manufacturer can succeed when it puts quality engineering together with an appropriately targeted buyer (BMW has also proven that McPherson struts, done correctly, can offer world-class ride and handling).

I really want to see Jaguar survive and become relevant again. Too many wonderful auto makes have been debased and then retired (many of them British). Jag once stood for something very special, both technically and aesthetically. I hope to see it do so again in the future. My two modern Triumph motorcycles have shown that a historic British brand can be revived and produce products that match those from Germany, Italy and Japan.

Article:

ÔÇ£Right off the bat, the numbers appeared quite lopsided in TataÔÇÖs favor.
Yes, the Indian maker agreed to pay $2.3 billion to Ford for the two
brands, but as soon as the deal formally closes, the American maker pumps a
hefty $600 million back into the Jaguar and Land Rover pension program.

Now, recall that Ford originally paid $2.5 billion for Jaguar, in 1989, and
$3.3 billion for Land Rover, in 1999. Work out even a modest rate of return
if the U.S. company had simply banked that cash in a money market account
and you donÔÇÖt need to be a math wiz to figure out who came out on the
bottom of the deal.

But when you dig even deeper, the numbers look even worse ÔÇô a lot worse. By
our calculations, Jag and LR added up to one of the costliest chapters in
Ford Motor Co.ÔÇÖs long history, having very likely drained away between $35
billion and $50 billion based on the best estimates gleaned from the
carmakerÔÇÖs financial records.ÔÇØ ÔÇöJoseph Szczesny with Paul A. Eisenstein

Edited on 2008-04-04 17:26:22

Those who hate cheap, plastic modern cars should look at Bristol Cars in the UK. Even the current Rolls Royce lacks something the old ones have.

Robert, at least we have the same opinion about new Jaguars, I would not buy one, nor have I bought one, I only believe in the old Jags, when they were Jaguars 100%. I will re-check my facts, but I think Ford paid $189 MILLION for Jaguar back in 1989, not billions. So if indeed that was the figure they paid, then a two-billion price tag must have brought them some pocket change. I agree about the dollar not being worth even 40 cents. Down here in the streets, where we are not part of Corporate America, is a very angering situation. Everything goes up except my pay. In any case it goes down daily. Very nice for Corporations. Now, same as Jaguar, Ford was not always like it is today, if I could easily get my hands on a relatively stock 1934 Ford Panel, (not hot-rodded for heaven's sake!), then I would be driving a Ford too. I just do not believe in today's cars, domestic or asian or european, you name it, they are nothing but cheap appliances on wheels selling for extremely high prices. And what do we get? garbage.
Plastic bumper covers concealing a cheap bumper "bar". Plastic dashes, plastic plastic plastic. Not even a rear axle! I will not buy a front wheel drive car even if all rear wheel drive cars cease to exist. I will not buy any car with McPhearson Struts either. Is somebody making REAL CARS? I hope TATA will.

If I recall correctly Ford paid something over two billion for Jaguar, invested several times that into the company and got back less then they paid for Jaguar in 1989. To add insult to injury today's dollars are smaller then they were in 89 so if you consider a loss of who knows how many billion dollars as a decent return on their investment, so be it! . Concerning Jaguar's quality in the 70's and and 80's I would suggest that you talk to someone that worked in a dealership at that point in time or check out Consumers Digest ..
I'm afraid that if Ford was to go under the present workers are only the tip of the iceberg of the people that would be hurt. It's funny that you speak of the poor results that you had with your one Ford, "Once bitten twice shy", your words, as we've driven Ford's for years without having anywhere near the problems that we had and were facing with our 97XK8 that we sold with only 27,000 miles. Just thinking about how much we liked that car and how many problems Jaguar had with these cars makes me feel bad so I think I'll get out of here.
Bob
PS I do hope that you've supported Jaguar by buying at least one new car.

Then I am serious because I would not miss Ford if they dissapeared tomorrow. I suppose the laid-off Ford employees would miss Ford. The State of MIchigan would miss Ford.
Most consumers don't buy Fords anymore so they wouldn't even notice, if Ford's market share is any clue of that.

As to Ford raising Jaguar quality standards, how can Ford raise anyone's quality if it doesn't have any itself? Slogans make no quality cars! No, I'm sorry, Jaguar came with its own quality standards into Ford's hands, a lot higher than Ford if longevity of 1980's Jaguars is any proof of that.

What was it that Ford said when it bought Jaguar in 1989? "We are proud to bring into our family the quality and prestige of a company like Jaguar Cars" Or was Ford lying then?

If Ford is to survive, they need to get out of the front wheel drive mania and start making real cars with real quality built into them, as in longevity, but a 5.0 liter engine does not a fine car make; Ford does not make "fine" cars. Ford cars start falling apart the minute you drive off in them. They smell like plastic. Is THAT the quality you refer to ? I think I'm living in the REAL world, the reason why I stick with my PRE-FORD Jaguars.

If I wanted a disposable car, I would get one from Japan, not an American-made copy.

So sorry but we just disagree. What did Ford pay for Jaguar in 1989? What did it sell Jaguar for in 2008? Would you agree they got a decent return for their investment?

J.A.M. I don't even know where to start in replying to your message. Just for starters Ford saved Jaguar from going under and raised their quality standards from being a standing joke that is still hard to live down to being one of the highest of todays cars.. I can't believe that anyone who lives in the real world could possible be serious when asking the question of who would miss Ford if they were gone!!!!!!

in all of this, Ford is not the center of attention, JAGUAR is. Personally, as a Jaguar enthusiast and as an American, I am glad Ford is out of the picture, the Jaguar marque was being degraded by being associated with Ford, a car maker that makes cheap, disposable, unsupported vehicles. If you've ever owned a Ford, you know what I am saying. Once bitten, twice shy. Jaguar cars are not disposable, they are keepers. Frankly, if Ford goes out of business tomorrow, who will miss them? But everyone would miss Jaguar.

Edited on 2008-04-01 15:09:54

A radical new design (make it green too) with the oomph of the XKE, XK120 or XJ220 will make the 2,000 million of dosh well spent/invested.

L-Rover needs that safari look (covered in jerry cans and shovels) to appeal to me.

The long-shelved Jaguar F-Type sports car, which debuted at the 2000 North American International Auto Show, appears to have secured the backing of Tata Group Chairman Ratan Tata, whose company is expected to take ownership of Jaguar and Land Rover within the next two weeks.

Speaking to journalists at the Geneva motor show on Tuesday, Tata said of the two-seater, "I'd be delighted if we have one in the range."

Smiling to journalists as he was questioned about the car, Tata said, "I do have a strong view about it," leaving listeners without doubt that he has interest in getting the F-Type into production."

Daniel

I have no power ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) to resolve the matter. It will be what it will be. Whether it's India or China who end up with Jaguar, it's not up to me. If the Indians have the money, more power to them. Funny how the Japanese are buying up the OLD Jaguars. Do they know something we don't? Or do they appreciate the old Jags more than we do? Blame the UK for not backing Jaguar in their time of need. The US Government bailed out Chrysler, (twice?), but they won't bail out American HOMEOWNERS. Hell I'm voting for Obama.

Edited on 2008-03-27 13:12:49

IF Tata wants to pass the Cat on and keep the luxo-mudders ... fine by me ...

A succession to an real euthusiast Owner/Management team could take things to to a whole new (i.e. positive) level ... and build the G-Type.

D. Lokun,
Canada

There is no guarantee that the Tata sale is a good thing for Jaguar. It was pretty clear , at least to me, from various articles I read on the sale that Rajan Tata wanted Land Rover, and not Jaguar, but that Ford would only sell them as a package. I would look for Jaguar to be spun off, or sold to another company fairly quickly. The future is very uncertain, and a potential for a recession in the US, Jaguar's largest potential market is not coming at a good time to resurrect the company.

Edited on 2008-03-26 15:16:28

Will be interesting to see if TATA supports JDHT or not. Thank God it's not part of the deal.

If Jaguar is left alone "do their thing" it might go racing (successfully like the 80s and 90s) or make something nifty the XJ220 supercar! >>

I assume the deal includes everything. Are you aware that Jaguar held valuable real estate assets? As far as I am concerned, Tata just bought themselves a brand name, and not much else.

Jaguar cannot be "left alone to do their thing". The company is losing a ton of money. No parent company in the world can afford to support that indefinitely.

The question is: what will Tata do to make Jaguar profitable again (and quickly)? Sell a smaller number of higher end cars? Sell a greater number of lower end cars? Stick the Jaguar badge on an econobox? The answer may not be pretty.

There is speculation that Tata only wanted the profitable operations of Land Rover to give them global reacha nd expand their existing product line and that they will very quickly turn around and sell Jaguar for whatever they can get.

What they have bought today is not the Jaguar that Ford bought in 1989. That was a company coming off a long string of successes that was headed into a global recession and that badly need modernization of its facilities and product line. The brand was strong then.

Today's reality is much more sobering.

As Doug said "time will tell"

Daniel

Hi Daniel!
Well, I am on the East Coast, getting ready to depart for the BOD/ AGM in Pittsburgh and anxious to hear what Greg Sanguinetti, our Jaguar Designate Director has to say Friday/Sat at the BOD/AGM.

My perspective is quite simple:
1) Better 'wanted' than 'discarded'.
2) Agree with Doug on Tata.
Everythting I've read says they 'leave companies alone to 'do their thing'
3) Better to call and speak 'English' to someone than 'German'.
4) North American company is selling, BUT as
Doug wisely says:
5) "Only time will tell".

Now there are some, who say IF Jaguar ceased to exists- our Jaguars would become even more 'special'. Personally, having several British Marque cars that are no longer in production
(Jensens, Triumphs) I like that Jaguar is alive and building modern, exciting contemporary vehicles.

Hi Daniel!
Well, I am on the East Coast, getting ready to depart for the BOD/ AGM in Pittsburgh and anxious to hear what Greg Sanguinetti, our Jaguar Designate Director has to say Friday/Sat at the BOD/AGM.

My perspective is quite simple:
1) Better 'wanted' than 'discarded'.
2) Agree with Doug on Tata.
Everythting I've read says they 'leave companies alone to 'do their thing'
3) Better to call and speak 'English' to someone than 'German'.
4) North American company is selling, BUT as
Doug wisely says:
5) "Only time will tell".

Now there are some, who say IF Jaguar ceased to exists- our Jaguars would become even more 'special'. Personally, having several British Marque cars that are no longer in production
(Jensens, Triumphs) I like that Jaguar is alive and building modern, exciting contemporary vehicles.

Heh, must be the cold air up north that makes Daniel such a crepe hanger. ;->

Jaguar is long from gone. However, FORD is gone from Jaguar. I actually have hope now that the "for sale" saga is over, but I do still worry about their ability to sell high end cars in this (US) economy.

... in Sunny Florida...

I wonder if anyone else noted the same irony 20 odd years ago when Jaguar was "purchased by a company in" America, "one of their former colonial possessions." ?

Edited on 2008-03-25 17:48:59

Does the deal include the copy-rights and real estate?

If Jaguar is left alone "do their thing" it might go racing (successfully like the 80s and 90s) or make something nifty the XJ220 supercar!

Regards,
D. Lokun

Yes, Michael,

The colonizers have now become the colonized, and the once colonized have become the colonizers of british products.

Tata also happens to own Tetley Tea (britain's largest tea maker), and Britain's largest steelmaker - Corus.

Hi Daniel!
Well, I am on the East Coast, getting ready to depart for the BOD/ AGM in Pittsburgh and anxious to hear what Greg Sanguinetti, our Jaguar Designate Director has to say Friday/Sat at the BOD/AGM.

My perspective is quite simple:
1) Better 'wanted' than 'discarded'.
2) Agree with Doug on Tata.
Everythting I've read says they 'leave companies alone to 'do their thing'
3) Better to call and speak 'English' to someone than 'German'.
4) North American company is selling, BUT as
Doug wisely says:
5) "Only time will tell".

Now there are some, who say IF Jaguar ceased to exists- our Jaguars would become even more 'special'. Personally, having several British Marque cars that are no longer in production
(Jensens, Triumphs) I like that Jaguar is alive and building modern, exciting contemporary vehicles.

I find it rather ironic that Jaguar, one of the most recognizable symbols of Britain worldwide, is going to be purchased by a company in India, one of their former colonial possessions.

Must be the air on the west coast....

Daniel

Huh? "Jaguar is gone...." ? Sounds like what people said when Ford was the buyer nearly 20 years ago. A closer look at who Tata is and what they do with businesses they acquire might well result in a subject line such as "Jaguar gets another chance.... " or perhaps even "Jaguar is reborn...."
But only time will tell.