Proposal for Casual Judging

First of all, I don't want to give the impression that all those I judged did not get the correct deductions. They did. I am now not doing much judging any more in any case. I have been Lead Judge with apprentices for the last few years at all of the JCNA concours that I have judged. I usually do a quick check and then let the others find the problems. I usually have to tone down their deductions (they seem to want to give max points of the the most minor scratch), but other than that I let them do their thing. If they miss something I will point it out, but with the current crop they seem to have caught most of the problems.

I do agree though we need to attract more people into the sport (not just concours, but ralley and slalom). If we are to continue with being a club.

I cannot speak for other regions or states, but here in Florida, we have a very social environment for all our events especially the concours. They are always tied to a hotel with a casual event scheduled for the Friday evening, and a banquet Saturday night. We do attract a small coterie of participants. We have many members that don't show up to the events, but then again many of them don't come to meeting either. Our problem is much the same as many other regions/states. The distances between events can be daunting. This too, discourages participation, except for the home club event.

BTW, I not only judge JCNA events, but I judge some charity events and the Winter Park Concours (the All British event is usually opposite the AGM so I have never gone).

Lou

Mark, as you know, JCNA judging does not allow for any differentiation between cars due to entrants intention or prior experience. For those shows early in the year, no one knows if this person is going to stop at the local level, or proceed enter additional shows because they did so well from "relaxed" judging. For the novice or first-time entrant, we go to great lengths to advise the owner that if he doesn't like the thought of someone judging his car and telling him whats "wrong" with it, then by all means, display the car and any one of us can do a "test" judging of his car.

Competition is competition, and an entrant has to understand that rules must be applied evenly. You cannot give an opposing "new" team another set of downs simply because they were "close enough". We use judges from other cities as well as from our own, and we have no control over these judges, and, they won't know if a car is from a first-time entrant or not (nor would they probably care).

What I would rather see you do is to (a) hold a concours judging tech session for your membership. This will give first-time entrants the opportunity to have their car "pre-judged" and to speak one-on-one with someone who is knowledgeable about the judging process. Or (b), if a tech session is not possible; add a single-sheet of information in your concours mail-out written expressly to the first-time entrant giving the pros/cons of entering a car for judging.

Judging cars is a JCNA obligation, but should NOT be what your concours is about. Downplay the judging, and emphasize the camaraderie, fun, and social aspects. Its the one day where the club can show these great cars to the public, be them modern drivers or old classics. Make the event entertaining. Find vendors who might give a discount for lunch to entrants; if you usually have a low turn-out, give everyone a memento or keep-sake that shows they were participants. Invite other car clubs to display their cars, perhaps limit them to British makes. Have 6 or 7 Judges Choice trophies that can be handed out to ANY display car. At the end of the day, its much better for an entrant to have a nice little trophy rather than something that reads 3rd place.who the heck wants that?!! Glass is always preferable to plastic or acrylic. If you have a Jag dealership in your city, see if they wont sponsor a set of awards, or even the Best of Show award.

We no longer give only one BOS award, but four. In the past, it seemed that our single BOS trophy usually went to a great old classic Jaguar (in Champ class), and that modern cars and Driven-class were simply SOL. (And usually, this classic has so many trophies already at home, that one more won't really make a lot of difference to him/her).

We now award big, heavy, etched-glass BOS trophies to Champ and Driven class cars, Classic and Modern. And, a 100-point car does not automatically receive a BOS simply because the difference between a 99.99 point car and a 100-point car is miniscule. Winners of BOS, for say 2007, are exempt from 2008this way it gives others the opportunity (and hope) to win a BOS.

Yes, Q-tip cleanliness can be quite intimidating to the first-time entrant, but thats the level of the competition. If he/she really doesnt want to spend much time cleaning and detailing the car, then so be it; their scores will reflect this, and perhaps should be advised to simply Display the car and enjoy the rest of the day. Either these people want to be a member of the club by either participating with a car or helping out by volunteering, or they dont. If the latter, then to heck with themthe rest of the club will have a fine time spending their dues check, thank you very much.

Its already difficult enough (from both the Concours Chairman and Chief Judge point of view) to gather a number of qualified persons to judge the JCNA field without adding yet one more tier to their task. How many times have you both entered a car and judged a show, and at the end of the day, felt like youve completely missed seeing all the cars and talking to all of your friends..more times than youd like to remember, Im sure.

So to wrap this up, there are other ways to entice first-time entrants to a concours, and dont forget that its a two-way streetit cant be all give from the clubs standpoint. I would expect a good member to at least be willing to meet you halfway and to put a bit of effort into either the car or the event.

Best Regards,
Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

Yes, it is important to try to have alternative activities available for other family members, especially wives and kids. You are fortunate that your wife attends shows with you. My wife and my kids could care less about attending our concours, though she will attend the evening awards banquet. But having everything within walking distance, including the host hotel, is GREAT! (I think you and your wife would enjoy our concours.)

There is no way that I could suggest a "family vacation" that included multiple days at a JCNA Challenge Championship. No, their idea of a vacation is white sand and drinks with little umbrellas in them. So, when I attend a concours show somewhere in Texas (pulling my 24-foot enclosed trailer) or even a Challenge Championship, it will be sans family. Bringing kids to a car show is just too painful. If Dad is showing and/or judging, then mom is stuck with keeping the kids happy, and that's not going to happen unless there's a little amusement park nearby ($$$$)

Anyway, I'll quit here before I get into trouble.

Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

A short while ago I could have been considered one of those die-hard concours participants and a concours judge too boot, but not anymore. I simply don't agree with some of the rules that require me to strip parts off my Canadian car in order to comply with the JCNA rules as they are presently written. In addition as a concours judge I was uncomfortable with enforcing rules that I felt were extremely bias and therefore absolutely could not bring myself to agree with them. There was also the part that required me to continually explain to the American judges why my car differs from that of a standard American issue car when the proper Jaguar paperwork to support my claims did not exist. Then we get to driving for an average 8 hours each way in order to have the pleasure of attending a concours held in a dusty parking lot mile away from anything. However none of this has anything remotly to do with this thread.

With all due respect Patrick. I believe that had the Victoria club adopted your philosophy on arranging concours events. They would be getting similar attendance results as your club experiences year to year. Thankfully they are a little more open minded and looked to see what they could do to attract all participants, both judged cars as well as all others. On my visit to their show, I found it to be so enjoyable, not just as a Concours event but an event that my whole family could have attended and have thoroughly enjoyed. As I have previously stated I understand the following two years since then they have made even greater strides to make it even more inviting by adding other activities that have not been in anyway car related.

To get people out to your shows, you have to be more like them and start making your events more inviting for the whole family, not just the owner of the car. I only attend open car shows now where I can take my Wife or daughter knowing full well they will have more to do than just sit in a dusty parking lot all day with a group of cars getting totally bored with it all. In fact, in all the time I was attending JCNA concours events regularly. Other than the Victoria Club event, I only remember one other show I attended, where my Wife had she attended, would have thoroughly enjoyed herself.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn

If I might add my 2 cents, I agree with Pascal's post.

However, having ÔÇ£casual judgingÔÇØ will NOT bring in any more participants. No, the reason that members donÔÇÖt attend is that they just are not interested in car shows, much less spending the time to prepare, detail, and show the car all day. Here in Houston, we go to GREAT lengths to let members know that we just want them and their cars at ÔÇ£the partyÔÇØ, and that they do not have to worry about the condition of the car or judging or any of that. But they still refuse to show up. WHY?
Because they have kids, appointments, playoff games, fishing, golfing, and other activities that they would RATHER be doing. A concours car show is not what they categorize as fun like you and I do.

Please watch the video we prepare every year for our members to get them interested in participating in our show. Click on the link below in red.
Short of begging (and a little of that too), we go to extraordinary measures to build club interest, and insist that judging is not a prerequisite.

Our club is 50% classic and 50% modern Jaguar. The classic guys are into showing; the modern guys are more for road trips. ThatÔÇÖs the way it is and the way it will always be. We have held other shows in other high-profile venues that didnÔÇÖt involve any judging and it was still like pulling teeth to get participation.

To finalize my point, this is not brain surgery, folks. Club members know full well that they are welcomed (and needed) at concours, and they are painfully aware that their car(s) do not have to be judged. Using the excuse that their car is not show quality is pure BS, and is a lame excuse for just not wanting to participate. So instituting relaxed judging will do NOTHING to increase concours participation. But if they have a fire in the belly and want to compete, then by golly, we have a judging system in place. Judging guides, rule books, and judging forms are available for all to read and follow.but the truth is they choose not to. Any one of us would be more than happy to visit a new member, and if asked, would "casually judge" his or her car pointing out areas that might cause deductions.

We're beating a dead horse guys. All we can do is plan for a quality event and then hope they come. If they do, then fine. If they don't, then to heck with it all....it's not worth all of this micro-management.

Respectfully,
Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

If I might add my 2 cents, I agree with Pascal's post. If an individual or new club member is simply bringing his car out to be a part of the club activity, and perhaps is talked into having his car judged (usually driven), it makes no sense for a bully judge to beat the heck out of this member. Odds are his car will make a nice presentation, but far from being at the top of the scores. And his score won't matter a hill of beans. So yes, on those who are truly competitive for JCNA nat'l placement, then heck yes, let the rules apply.

Please take a minute to watch this short video. This is what we send to all of our members each year in regards to our show:
http://www.mcload.com/Concours%20Invitation%20Video.mov
(you may have to cut and paste into your browser)

Even with the absolute best venue for the show, we have to realize that regardless how tempting we make it, many folks just aren't into car shows for any number of reasons. Here in Houston, we have about 100 members; half classic Jag, half modern Jag. The classic guys like to show; the modern guys like to go. I agree that there is nothing wrong with a "Display" class, though I wouldn't use "only".

So yes, we have to dot all the JCNA "I's" and cross all the "T"'s for those after national placement, but we can also try to make it fun for the new guy too...a lot depends on a judge's demeanor. So year after year, it's all we can do to get a field of 40-50 cars. Having a well-thought out venue makes all the difference in the world....nearby hotel, coffee service courtesy of the club, nearby restaurants for lunch and dinner, bottles of ice water available to all participants (free), etc.

Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

John:
I am Chief Judge for the Victoria Club. It is not our purpose to have "one of the largest judged elements in the country" (aside: perhaps you mean in North America?); but, in fact, I think that the number judged IS among the largest. In any case, the task of training judges and setting up competent judging teams to evaluate any number aproximating 50 cars is an almost overwhelming task if we are not to unduly burden any individuals. We must depend on the goodwill and kindness of not only guest judges from clubs nearby in our own country, but also those most welcome foreign (!) guest judges. They have responded most generously and we hope that will continue, as we also lend our support to their events.
Our goal, however, *is* to have a large number of Jaguars on the field, as large a number as possible (I am hoping for 200 this year; as last year we had just over 160, this is by no means impossible) judged by JCNA rule or by popular choice, and to have the owners of these Jaguars, and visitors, have a marvellous time, and in the process to gain new JCNA members (which we do every year). Frankly I don't care whether we judge 5 cars or 50; in fact the former would be much easier given the increasing complications of the judges' guide. There will always be those who want to compete and those who simply want to enjoy the day; they are equal in the eyes of the organizers of Jaguars-on-the-Island.
Our event this coming year is the weekend of July 4/5/6. How about being one of the 200?

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type
2004 XJ8 4.2

Bob To clarify, If my comments were taken to denigrate the Victoria club's achievment I am sorry. I meant to illustrate that a great show can be put on even though the numbrt judged is not overwhelming. I bet with that enthusiasm and competence the Victoria concours will grow to have one of the largest judged elements in the country. Maybe the welcoming of enthusiasts' cars is one of the best ways to increase the cars judged. Also, I believe it would be useful and interesting to have the number of enthusiasts cars attending reported to JCNA.

John
Mk 9

John. You should take into consideration when using Victoria's attendance numbers that this is a comparatively young club. I believe I am right when I say this year was only Victoria's forth year as a JCNA affiliated club. So to manage to attract 160 cars in only their third ever Concours is a totally remarkable achievement in my book. I am also willing to bet that they top the 200 figure at their next Concours.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Se

John This is an interesting string. The Victoria concours was cited as a tremendous success with 160 cars. By my tally 44 were judged and the rest presumably on display. John Testrake cited 70 cars at the St. Louis concours. 52 were judged. By my tally, 30 of our members provided cars which were judged. I think it fair to assume that all, or at least most,of the 16 display (eliminating dealer-provided) were members. Almost half of our families participated and as far as I know, all had fun. And we don't have an island. Several years ago Phil Taxman, who has been co=chairman of the concours for some time, called our concours a Celebration of Jaguars. It still is.

My conclusion is that the concours system is not broken. Clubs have a great deal of flexibility in how they set up and administer their concours. They can give awards for furthest driven, popular vote, etc.. etc. They can pick a venue which is fun for the participants and spectators (welcome or not welcome) as they see fit. They can schedule meals and entertainment as they see fit. What they cannot do is mess with the judged portion of the concours. Personally, I believe that "display" or "enthusiast" entries add to the quality of the show. If some of them wish an informal judging that should be available to them. They should be encouraged to enter the judged field it they have any interest and this is done by having a friendly, receptive atmosphere.

It doesn't necessarilly belong in this string but JCNA is an association of clubs. It's membership can increase by the clubs putting out a product which is attractive to Jaguar enthusiasts in their areas or by adding clubs (such as Minesota, which reputedly has 170 members). The at-large membership is available but probably can't make a major change in JCNA membership.

Anyway, the string has included some good ideas and has presumably opened some possibilities for other clubs to consider. Maybe we should have more JCNA emphasis on club development.

Mk 9

This interesting. I think we all fight attendance no matting how big the event or small.

I wonder how many know how the C.C. came by it's name "Challenge Championship Meet."

Back when it was a vision of a few to get all of the First Place winneres together from all of the clubs and have a face off. Judge them and the winner of each class would them become the true First in Class a North American winner. But as steps were set in motion it soon became appearanr that that dream was going to happen. BUT the name remained even though a more discritive name for the event was published and used once. The proposed event name: "International Jaguar Festival" The logo had the growler in the center with Jaguar Clubs of North America around the Growler. It was a rather nice idea.

As for attendance, well...To drive a '70 or even a 1988 half to three quarters across the U.S. is a bit risky and can get expensive. I think Mike mentioned something about a tow truck in his JJ article.

I have been to several and have enjoyed the meet but I have never put a Jaguar in competition. Right now the price of fuel is out of sight and even renting transport is expensive.

This may sound negative but I'm not trying to be.

Thanks for listening.

Edited on 2007-11-26 22:30:43

Pascal. I am not sure what message your latest post sends. However using the 2007 attendance figures published on the JCNA web site, only 208 or 3.48% out of the 6,000 total membership of JCNA. finds the present Concours Judging system motivational enough to have embraced the desire to compete in more than a single JCNA concours event this last year.

Only 18.9% of the remaining 96.52 % of the JCNA membership found the existing set up of Judged Concours events even desirable enough to attend a single concours, that most likely being held by their own home club.

That leaves us with 81.1 % of all JCNA club members that couldnÔÇÖt care one little bit about having their cars judged under the present system. Obviously the system is not working at all for these members. So something new has to be offered to these owners, in order to attract them out to Jaguar club events. Cannot possibly change their minds unless you can draw them out to your events and give them the opportunity to experience something new.

You also cannot put it down to all of them having no desire to show their cars either. A Jaguar club with 300 plus members, whoÔÇÖs Concours I have attended in the past, recorded an attendance of only 74 cars at this years Concours event. This number was made up entirely from all their own club members. Out of these entrants, 33 cars were entered into display while the remaining 41 cars were placed up for judging.

Compare this with the turn out of Jaguars at the British car show held in conservation park a couple of months later in the same general area. Out of the nearly 1,500 British cars in attendance, the Jaguar entries totaled nearly 92 cars. These Jaguars came from all over with less than 20 of them being actually local Jaguar club members. Awards are presented in an informal gathering of the participants at the announcers booth at the end of the show, nothing fancyThis is a totally socially based fun car show to attend, with the judging just being a small part of it.

In contrast, for JCNA sanctioned Concours event, the Jaguar club selected an athletic field of a local college to be the show area. No designated hotel and therefore no meet and greet the night before the event. No washing facilities were made available other than a regular drive through car wash situated at a gas station down the road. They had a vendorÔÇÖs area set-aside in addition to an area for display cars; both however are segregated from the rest of the cars that are to be judged. A prize draw takes place during the running of this Concours, seeing many quality donated items being given away to the concours participants by way of a draw. The awards banquet normally takes in the form of a barbecue meal followed by an informal distribution of the awards. All over and done with in about an hour and a half. This event revolves completely around the presentation and judging of the cars. Nothing more nothing less. As a result this would not attract any of the 81.1% of the existing JCNA members that are apparently not turned on in any way by this type of judged event. However have to add it is a lot better than the Concours events I attended that were held in a windswept dusty parking lot at the side of a deserted racetrack and the parking lot tucked away behind a hotel.

Now just for comparison purposes only and this is just my personal observation of the Victoria event, which I attended in 2005.

It was obvious that the guys in the Victoria club had given a lot of thought to all the little details. Items that may not have seemed too important at the planning stage to other clubs, but ended up playing such a big part in making the whole of this particular Concours experience more than worthwhile for the participants. Regardless of the results of the judging, it left you with the feeling that you wanted to come back for more. It was indeed a celebration of the cars and the people involved with them. The judging became secondary to the event itself.

The Victoria club had arranged a local hotel right in a central area that allowed you the opportunity to walk to a choice of restaurants, clubs, shops even the docks. A portion of the underground parking lot had been set aside for the exclusive use of the Concours participants and this section was
complete with a very adequate washing facility. This allowed you both peace of mind knowing your car was safe plus it gave you the opportunity to get up close and personal with all your fellow competitors. Sharing jokes, friendly barbs and time to offer and accept valuable tips on the preparation our cars. Also gave me the opportunity to meet Stew Cleave. I was parked along side him over the weekend and had him constantly razing me about my not showing my new acquisition because I felt it needed some TLC before I would have it judged.

The Victoria club held a magnificent meet and greet the first evening inside the hotel where a lot of the club members took the time out of their busy schedules to come down to meet the visitors to their fine city. This was followed up the next morning with an equally magnificent breakfast. Each out of town participant was handed a detailed map, which afforded a couple of alternate routes to be traveled to the show grounds. It allowed you to choose between a scenic route along the shoreline, which is the one I chose to use or the more inland route that took you through the town. In addition, on the entry form that you filled out to get your car registered for the Concours, you were also given the opportunity to order a more than ample fixed lunch which was delivered to you at your car at mid day. The show field had also been both selected and laid out well. It had both shade and a gorgeous view, that of the sea, toilets and refreshments. A vendor section had also been allowed for. All the cars were placed together on the judging field with the display cars right there in the mix with the cars to be judged. Allowing more of a feeling of participation for those not having their cars judged. Like me..

At the conclusion of the event we all had time for a leisurely drive back to the hotel at which time I searched for the only Tim Hortons coffee shop that existed in Victoria at the time. It was now time to clean up and get ready to attend the awards banquet. Even that was the best event I have ever attended at the conclusion of a Concours . Lots of draw prizes with even had a silent auction on items to raise funds for the club. I managed to score a book by Steve Kennedy, which has since become my Jaguar bible.

As I have said, the Judging became secondary in this event because the people made it so. I had such a good time I just wanted to attend again no matter what. In short I would attend this event as often as I could if it were just that little bit closer to where I live. What is even harder to accept is that apparently they improved this meet even further by adding even more activities to this annual event.

The only other Concours I have attended that somewhat left me with this feeling was the one I previously described that took place at legacy village in Ohio but even that one fell well short of the Victoria clubs efforts..

Talking this as a prime example, I believe the only way will we ever start to attract more participation is to follow this lead set by the Victoria club. We can start not by diluting the traditional Concours events or judging of such events although I do believe we should condense some of the classes. We should start to rethink about the way we set them up. To grow substantially we have to start to cater to the requirements of the 81.1% of the JCNA members presently not interested in participating in the rigidly judged events. We can only accomplish this by adding other activities and attractions to the more formal Concours part of our events they that would find appealing. Perhaps even hold your Concours in areas of particular interest or in conjunction with other attractions or activities.

The local MG club with 350 total members recently held an event the distillery district of Toronto that attracted 250 of their members complete with their cars and most of their families. We could get simular results if we only use our imaginations just like the Victoria Jaguar club has done.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn

Wow! This is a lot to absorb, esp. when we seem to bounce between total attendance and concours participants.....

I concur with Doug's underlying premise: Give them what they want. There was a thread on the General JCNA Issues forum recently that asked why more folks didn't attend the Challenge Championship. It seems that some (including me) wondered why only 300+ JCNA people showed up and 125 cars were on Monument Circle in downtown Indy, surrounded by hundreds (thousands?) of office workers that Friday. Lost in the numbers is that 87 participated in the judged classes, about twice the participation of other shows in the past 3 months and typical of attendance at the last 3 CCs, and that there was NO charge to Display your car. The implication was that attendance was poor when it was typical.

We offered 4.5 days of slalom, rally, concours events plus options for 4 laps on the Indy track and a day on a 1.8 mile road course. 2 took advantage of the race car experience (during the slalom) and none signed on for the road course.

Yes, it was a lot of work for the organizers and those who came claimed to have a great time. Yet there was room for more to attend. Won't there always be?

Re the CC, I see JCNA as providing an opportunity for those so inclined to take advantage of it. In my own club, we don't expect everyone to particpate in everything on our calendar of events. Some will attend tech sessions, some will join others on cruises through the back roads, and some will show their car(s). Fewer will do all 3. And, as Doug says, if the member doesn't think they are getting their money's (and time's) worth, they'll not renew or participate.

The CC show on the Circle resulted in 1-2 new memberships. We actually got more members when we participated the following month with a local all-British car show and when our 15 Jags were outnumbered 10:1. One nice gesture they had was to award 1st place trophies to 1 car in each row and about 5 Honorable Mention plaques. (But now we're talking about a People's Choice approach.)

Perhaps we're evolving to renaming the current Classes, such as Class A, B, C and D? Class A could be the current Champ class philosophy. Class B could be the current Driven philosophy. Class C could be the current Special class, broken into sub-classes like the others as people learn* there is room in the process for their modified cars. Class D could be the Display class, similarly broken down by subclass and for those who could choose whether to be informally judged ... or not. Like now, trophies would be awarded to the first 3 classes. Somehow I suspect this approach has been considered/rejected before. (It reminds me of the BCS approach to scoring. The engineer in me is intrigued by the math that would weight 1 concours over another, but like someone said - this is a hobby, not a Madison Ave. race for the advertising dollar.)

* I'm surprised by the number of folks on the Jag Lover's E-Type list who refer to "concours d'arrogance" when they still don't realize that there is now a place in the Special Class for their upgraded Jag.

I guess, esp. this time of year, you'll find me counting my blessings
rather than taking issue with one remark or another here.

Best regards,
Cliff Burk
JAGIN Pres.
JCNA NC RD

Doug, lots of good idea in your posts, bottom line... it has to be fun !

let's face it... club events compete with other activities and other hobbies, if we're not making it fun,it's not going to be appealing.

To some members, spending hours before and in the morning of the concours cleaning and detailing is fun... for these folks, we have the existing concours system which works pretty well. is it perfect ? no... but it's pretty good and i think the effort of the past few years (judging guides, etc... ) have helped a lot.

For the others, which i think is the majority, the fun is to go to the event, meet other enthusiasts and have a good time. Display is perfect... which is why i think display only class is so important.

One of the worst PR mistakes i saw over the years was at the 03 JCC in Phoenix where Display entrants were relegated to a dark covered parking area and no given an event badge. I switched back to Driven or Modified just to be out with the rest of the Es... i didn't drive 2500 miles to be put in a dark corner...

Mark, I don't think (and hope you cant) drop display from a Sanctioned concours... leave it and add some optional casual judging or whatever... but display is part of the official classes and it shoudl be available to those who dont' want to be judged. without discrimination :-)

I'm going to forward Doug's posts to our club officers... if they can bring in 160 jaguars on that island... they're doing something right. We have 3 millions people around here (south florida) and we're strugling to get 40 cars on the field. heck, you cna't even drive one block without seing a jaguar on the street or in a driveway...

Doug Ingram,

Again Doug Ingram, you are missing the point. You insist on using the baseless argument that a low percentage of JCNA member who participate in concours means that there is "obviously a problem," that is an apples and oranges comparision if there ever was one. And sadly for you and Bob Higgs, when I offer opinions that you two disagree with, the both of you start in with the sarcasm, cheap shots and what sure appears to me as being obnoxious responses.

By all means, keep posting about your ideas here however when someone disagrees with you, please resist the urge to jump in with sarcasm and making it personal.

And Doug Dwyer, my post about two clubs holding "watered down" concours looks like it need to be explained further. Two clubs near me decided to keep the regular JCNA rulebook concours but add a "causal judging" part of the day's activities. Sure great fun and all that but it did not increase membership participation one iota. On the other hand, it discouraged people from sigining on as JCNA members because they allowed non JCNA members to enter their cars in the fun show. Yes, the result was they had more cars on the field for one day than in the past but most of them were non-members. Then they started pointing to the fact that so few of the entrants participated in the JCNA sanctioned concours portion, they stopped doing that all together. Those clubs offered and alternative which if anything accomplished the exact opposite of what the intended purpose was and now these clubs no longer hold JCNA sanctioned concours.

To use Doug Ingram's words, "I don't think that's too good."

Doug,

In my opinion you can carry on your "obnoxious lecturing". You and your club have listened to the people that attend your event and you have responded with an event which people like myself will drive several hundred miles for.

Your event will continue to grow and those that put on events and are either unable or unwilling to change will watch theirs die by doing the same wrong things over and over. Kind of reminds me of the definition of insanity.

Jerry Liudahl
Old Irish Racing
www.oldirish.com

William, trust me, the concours portion of "Jaguars On The Island" is not "watered down". They go right by the JCNA rulebook.

The "JOTI" event has been enormously sucessful. If the numbers alone aren't convincing enough just ask some of the people who have attended and they'll be glad to tell you all about it in subjective terms.

I usually attend 5-7 Jag and/or British car events each year. If circumstances dictated that I attend only one, it would be JOTI....despite a 400 mile round trip and having to take a ferry to even get there.

Any club interested in increasing member participation would do well to listen the Doug's advice.

Even though you disagree with Doug's suggestions there's no denying the results. Its hard to argue with sucess.

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Again, William, you are missing the point. There are nearly 6,000 members in JCNA, so even using your (possibly exaggerated, according to Bob at least) estimate of 1,500 of them taking part, that's 25%, and gee, I don't think that's too good. Clearly, the MINORITY of JCNA members that participate (I'm one of them, by the way) are to at least some degree satisfied with the events as they are... that's why they participate. Otherwise, they would join the MAJORITY who stay away.

You're right, I don't know anything about your club (other than the fact that very few of you attend your concours) and I don't know what the weather was like on those days, that's why I cited numbers for four years, not just one... And yes, it's possible that the weather was bad for each and every one of your past four events and that bad weather is the major reason attendance was so low, yes, that's possible.

But I'm not buying that the weather being bad is the main reason the program across all of JCNA gets so little support. Come on. That's like all those cars with blown up engines or cars that got wrecked a week before the event.

My arguments are certainly not baseless, not to an objective observer, at least. In fact, they are based on hard number results that are easily available to all to look at. If anyone can put forth a case that there is anything other than a minority of JCNA members who support the concours program, well... I'm waiting.

I don't take it personally, and you don't have to like my suggestions. That's OK with me. I'll get rewarded for sharing my passion about this subject from other people who are not so stuck in the past, and are more open minded to looking for solutions to what so obviously is a problem. You want to call it "obnoxious lecturing"? That's OK, you don't have to read any more of what I write or listen to what I say. But I'll keep on, because some are willing to listen, some will take a few ideas and shape them in their own way, some will come up with different and better ideas, some will implement some of these ideas, and I believe that better events and better attended events will be the result. It's even OK if I become a pariah to you or others of your mindset.

To Bob & John: thanks for the descriptions of the events that you provided above. Closed downtown streets, outdoor cafes, pedestrians looking on, music, games, shopping, kids games... sounds like a nice way to spend a day with gorgeous Jaguars and the camaraderie of fellow Jaguar enthusiasts.

I'm still really keen to hear from others about this. Anyone?

Doug Ingram

Again, William, you are missing the point. There are nearly 6,000 members in JCNA, so even using your (possibly exaggerated, according to Bob at least) estimate of 1,500 of them taking part, that's 25%, and gee, I don't think that's too good. Clearly, the MINORITY of JCNA members that participate (I'm one of them, by the way) are to at least some degree satisfied with the events as they are... that's why they participate. Otherwise, they would join the MAJORITY who stay away.

You're right, I don't know anything about your club (other than the fact that very few of you attend your concours) and I don't know what the weather was like on those days, that's why I cited numbers for four years, not just one... And yes, it's possible that the weather was bad for each and every one of your past four events and that bad weather is the major reason attendance was so low, yes, that's possible.

But I'm not buying that the weather being bad is the main reason the program across all of JCNA gets so little support. Come on. That's like all those cars with blown up engines or cars that got wrecked a week before the event.

My arguments are certainly not baseless, not to an objective observer, at least. In fact, they are based on hard number results that are easily available to all to look at. If anyone can put forth a case that there is anything other than a minority of JCNA members who support the concours program, well... I'm waiting.

I don't take it personally, and you don't have to like my suggestions. That's OK with me. I'll get rewarded for sharing my passion about this subject from other people who are not so stuck in the past, and are more open minded to looking for solutions to what so obviously is a problem. You want to call it "obnoxious lecturing"? That's OK, you don't have to read any more of what I write or listen to what I say. But I'll keep on, because some are willing to listen, some will take a few ideas and shape them in their own way, some will come up with different and better ideas, some will implement some of these ideas, and I believe that better events and better attended events will be the result. It's even OK if I become a pariah to you or others of your mindset.

To Bob & John: thanks for the descriptions of the events that you provided above. Closed downtown streets, outdoor cafes, pedestrians looking on, music, games, shopping, kids games... sounds like a nice way to spend a day with gorgeous Jaguars and the camaraderie of fellow Jaguar enthusiasts.

I'm still really keen to hear from others about this. Anyone?

Doug Ingram

William

Re my post above. There were only 1066 members that had chosen to participate with their cars in the JCNA sanctioned concours events in 2007. Not 1500+ that you have suggested in your post to Doug.

In fact I even think my figure is high because I never took into consideration people that have shown in more than three events, people that have shown more than one car and people that have cross shown in both regular classes and preservation classes. The actually figure could easily be below the 1000 participants mark.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Se

Doug,
Thanks for your very good and well thought out comments. We'll be implementing many of your suggestions in our next show here in St. Louis. I especially like your comments on being friendly and making everyone feel welcome. Some of us on this forum could benefit from that advise. I've had my car judged by some really grumbly judges in the past at various shows. As a judging team leader, I've always made a point to be friendly with an entrant. I feel we are fortunate to have their car at our show and I want them to feel appreciated. We can easily do that and still maintain the strictest adherence to JCNA judging standards.

We had one of our best attended shows ever this year with over 70 cars on the show field. A great deal of the success is due to the venue. Like Bob said, nobody wants to come to a dusty parking lot with no amenities. Our show was in a downtown area and we were able to get two blocks of a busy street closed for us. The city was there at 6:00am with a street sweeper and the show site was very nice. Restaurants, coffee shops and outdoor cafes line the sidewalks. People could sit right next to their cars sipping a gourmet coffee. There was lots of local pedestrian traffic. We had a band playing. Everybody had a great time.

John Testrake
Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis
74 XJ12L rhd, 85 XJ6

Doug,

You statistics regarding our club are completely meaningless to your argument. Since you obviously know very little to nothing about our club, I really don't think you're in a position to guess as to why or why not many of our members didn't participate in the last few years. Do you know what the weather was in Connecticut for any of the four days in question? The WEATHER is the number one factor on concours attendance, PERIOD, you should be smart enough to know that. Do you know whether or not we adequately marketed our concours to previous years entrants? No, you don't so please spare us your theories about our members "voting with their feet."

I don't like your ideas and you don't like my positions either so how about you just leave it at that and spare us your obnoxious lecturing. You see some major "problem" here and I do not nor do a LARGE majority of the 1500+ of so people that enter in JCNA concours every year.

I find almost all of your arguments and reasoning to be baseless and ridulous however and up until now, I've been presenting my positions respectfully and reasonably. The same cannot be said about you.

I've seen two nearby clubs water down their concours with ideas similar to yours and now neither of them hold JCNA sanctioned concours anymore. This is another reason I don't like any of your or other's suggestions that we should water down and take the focus away from the regular JCNA snactioned concours. As a result, those of us in New England, New York and New Jersey many times now have to travel out of our region to get in that third concours if we are to compete nationally.

Again, I don't like your suggestions, and I despise people's choice formats, it's as simple as that and your claim that it's "democratic" is laughable. Don't take it personally.

To give more perspective on what Doug is saying.

At one Concours, I had driven ten and a half hours one way to attend a Concours that turned out to be held in a dusty windy parking lot. Toilets were 800 yards away and you could not buy a coffee or get a thing to eat anywhere. The exhibitor that was parked beside me actually shared his sandwiches and coffee with me which he had bought with him from home. I canÔÇÖt think why but only 22 people in total showed up, with only 7 of them being local club members.

A seven and halfhour drive one way to another Concours the same year. My car is now being shown in the rear parking lot of a hotel. No shade and absolutely nothing else of interest around.

Never in a million years would you ever catch me showing in either of these two places again.

Best one of that year for me was held in a place called legacy village. The Concours event was held in conjunction with an all British car club meet and it was set up much like Doug has with his. They had music, shopping in the quaint little cobblestone village itself for those that were so inclined, prize draws, games with prizes for the kids and they gave out appreciation gift packages to all that participated (both judged and non judged).

They had 100's of spectators walking through who were also being encouraged to participate by having them mark out ballot reflecting their choice of cars to receive a popular choice award. (My ÔÇ£Black CherryÔÇØ car was awarded one)

In addition as Doug has done with his event, they had the on display cars mixed right in with those to be judged. Which gave you the chance to mingle and talk to them about showing their cars in future. The gentleman beside me was not only good enough to help me with the preparation of my car but he also loaned me one of his whistle stops out of his car because I had apparently lost one of mine on the way to the show.

I could have actually taken my wife to this show and she would have enjoyed herself immensely, as she would have done had she been at the one held in Victoria. Cannot think of any others where that would have been the case. Certainly not at the either of the first two I have cited.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn

William,

I really think you are missing the point of all this. You don't have to give anything up, you can still compete as you want to, this is about adding to the events to increase participation.

First of all, I don't think anyone above is suggesting that the existing concours program, and especially the Champion Division, should be done away with. I personally think that while it has some weaknesses, the program is pretty good in general. I certainly enjoy competing in it, and have achieved some very gratifying successes, including two North American championships. I'm also an active and willing judge. My position is that the existing Concours program should stay, and continue to evolve as it has been. Others are proposing changes that would affect the Driven Division, but unless I'm mistaken, those who have commented are leaving the Champion Division alone.

The problem is with the way that most clubs in JCNA are organizing and conducting their "concours" events. The problem is that most club members are simply not interested, and they show their lack of interest by staying away. Your suggestion that there "MANY MANY people out there who really don't have a problem with the present system and when they have the time and inclination (or their engines aren't blown up or their car didn't get wrecked a week before the concours) still very much like to compete under the present system and rules" is without foundation, and frankly a bit ridiculous. What evidence do you have? WHEN are these people going to get the time and inclination? Think about it: they are voting with their feet... they are staying away, they are gardening, visiting friends, shopping, reading a book, and doing lots of other things. What they are NOT doing is going to the events.

I can illustrate the sad reality of all this by looking at your own Jaguar Club of Southern New England. Please don't take this personally, I'm not picking on you or your club, but yours is a very typical situation, and an example of what is happening in MOST of the clubs in JCNA:

In 2007, 14 of your 118 members participated in your concours. In 2006, it was 20 out of 129. In 2005, it was 23 out of 131. And in 2004, it was 19 out of 124. William, that's 15% of your members taking part. 15%! I don't know about you or anybody else, but I don't think it's very good that more than 8 out of 10 of your members are not interested. That's a problem, at least in my books it is.

And it's a problem that needs some willingness to think a bit differently, and to actually look and see that they way things are being done is not working any longer.

So, what's wrong with popular choice if it means the people will come out and enjoy themselves? What's wrong with the shiny red car winning? It's a democratic process, and if the people say that the shiny red car is their favorite, then who is anyone else to say they are wrong?

None of this precludes you from competing in Champion Division, sticking to authenticity, having high standards, and in other ways enjoying the hobby as you want to. But what could possibly be wrong with having events that more than a small minority of club members will enjoy?

Come to an event with 160 Jaguars on the field, with hundreds of spectators milling around, with participants enjoying themselves, each other, and all the Jaguars in a festival-like atmosphere of celebration, and then tell me that I'm wrong.

Doug Ingram

That last entry was from me. I have no idea why my name didn't appear when I posted it.

William Jenkins
Jaguar Club of Southern New England
1996 XJ6 VDP
1986 XJ6
1987 XJ6

To answer Bob's question above... we had more than a dozen new members sign up by the end of the day. Putting on an event that welcomes and celebrates ALL Jaguars and their owners, and doesn't look down on their less-than-perfect cars, is a great way to promote the club and encourage non-member enthusiasts to join.

We had 90 of our own members' Jaguars on the field (plus those who joined during the day). Of those, 23 had their car judged, which was about half of the total number of judged cars. How many of those 67 club members who had their Jaguar in Enthusiast Division would have stayed home if we ran our event like most other events are run? I'm pretty certain that the vast majority would have spent their day doing something else, just like happens at most other clubs' events across the continent.

These events need to be something that the people WANT to be at, so at the end of the day they are glad they came. and they go home feeling good about their Jaguar and their involvement in the hobby.

Doug Ingram

Greetings All
I have to date successfully avoided forums as one more time consuming opportunity in my busy, albeit retired, day. But our new president Ron Kuligowski directed me to this thread because we have been there with a casual judging system. Let me tell you of our experience

As Chief Judge I have been bothered primarily by the great amount of time per car it was taking us to judge to JCNA standards. When I add school preparation, judges school, actual judging, administration, post event score sheet scrutiny, protest resolution and all it amounted to over two hours per car. So I set out to reserve JCNA judging for only the truly interested while maintaining a concours event for the club.

I call our system the ÔÇ£Olympic SystemÔÇØ because it leads to Gold, Silver and Bronze awards, without the time requirement for quantifying each score in detail. In essence we judge relative position subjectively rather than absolute scores, which are really needed only for North American comparisons. Authenticity is only considered if something is obviously wrong. And yes, gold awards go to cars that may not be exactly equal under the jcna system, but then both owners brought a gold level car according to the judges.

A simplified judging system was discussed at an AGM by the Pacific Northwest club and John Gleadle who was on the JCNA Board with me back at the turn of the century. But our esteemed secretary can find no record of it in AGM minutes. Further development credit goes to Brian Hernan of Atlanta who introduced me to using it at a Road Atlanta non-JCNA show. Try judging an E-Type against a 300SL against an A-M Zagato.

My proposal to our club and details are posted in the articles at jcna.com, Carolina Jaguar Club rather than run into great detail here.

At our 2005 concours, which was part of a larger all-British show, entrants were eligible for several trophies. Every Jaguar on the field was eligible for the host clubÔÇÖs popular vote trophies. We helped the Triumph Club define classes to compliment JCNA so parking would work better. Second, every Jaguar on the field belonging to a club member was entered in the Olympic judging, no big fuss made about it. Prizes were funded by our sponsorÔÇÖs contribution. Third, every member who wanted to be JCNA-judged and had so indicated on his pre-registration form and paid the extra and not insignificant fee was judged and eligible for JCNA trophies, funded by their entr?®e fees. I used JCNA Driven classes for simplicity, but note that class assignments really do not affect the outcome.

How did it work? Well, in that about 50 cars were judged by a team of 4 in 1 hour, 15 mins. Success. Cars were not opened and owners didnÔÇÖt have to be present. Nobody complained about their placements. I had planned for equal 1/3 splits for awards, but as I recall there were more Gold than 1/3. ThatÔÇÖs OK. Prizes were a framed photo of the vineyard aging room with class and award overprinted. It didnÔÇÖt work in that we still had people request JCNA judging who did not go to enter other JCNA events. When asked why they often said something about bragging rights at the water cooler if they had a numerical score.

Bottom line. I encourage all to explore casual systems, and I think I will try it again. I think the secret is to forget a numerical discrete scoring system and back down to a subjective one.

Jim Morton
Carolina Jaguar Club, Chief Judge
mortoncjcmindspring.com
336-324-6532

meant to say joined a Jag club.

Doug, It sounds like you folks put on a great event but the big question is how many of the 100 + cars in the display class were Jaguar club members or if not later a club?
Bob

Doug,
GREAT POST!!! It sure sounds like your club has a truly exciting program. Wow, great attendance numbers over time. That's what it should be about.....having fun! Great awards ideas for the "Enthusiasts" cars.

Too bad I'm 3,323.5 "yahoo-maps" miles away. We'd love to come to the next one. Sounds like a great time!

Rich

Great post, Doug.

Everything you said deserves point-by-point agreement but its so much simpler to just say "If you've ever been to Jaguar on the Island you'll never want to miss it in the future."

Everything about the event is "top drawer" and the philosophies and methods you've mentioned are obviously practiced, not just preached.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Great post Doug. I was hoping somebody from your side was going to speak up.

I have attended one of VictoriaÔÇÖs events and I would go again in an instance given the chance and to hell with the stone chips and road damage. I like everybody else that attended the year I was there, I had such a great time. Doug is perfectly right you get treated so well and made to feel so welcome it becomes addictive, you just want more. The only draw back for me in attending another of their events is that it would take a 4,000 mile round trip drive for me to get there again. This equates to about eight days of driving.

Oh and that ferry trip is worth every penny of the fare. It is eye candy all the way across.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Se

So, many are wondering why attendance at ÔÇ£concoursÔÇØ events is not too good. Many clubs go to a lot of work to put on a ÔÇ£concoursÔÇØ, and for what? Most clubs donÔÇÖt even get 25% of their own members showing up. Then we have some among us who suggest that members ÔÇ£shouldÔÇØ participate, as if it is some kind of duty. CÔÇÖmon, itÔÇÖs a club, itÔÇÖs a hobby. This issue is really quite simple, and thinking that the solution will come from making changes to JCNA programs is folly. The problems lie within your individual clubs, and in outdated attitudes and paradigms. The solutions are within your individual clubs ability to implement, starting right now, and delivering results for your events in 2008.

ItÔÇÖs not earth shaking, itÔÇÖs not revolutionary.

Here it is: ÔÇ£Give ÔÇÿem what they want, and theyÔÇÖll come.ÔÇØ

The events that you are holding are not what your members want, and they are not what non-member Jaguar owners want, so itÔÇÖs no surprise that they stay away.

Think about it: a minority of Jaguar owners in North America belong to a Jaguar club. (Does anyone dispute this?) And, a minority of Jaguar owners who do belong to a club are interested in the concours program. (Does anyone dispute this?) If you agree with these two statements, then it follows that a really small minority of Jaguar owners, club members and non-members, are interested in concours.

So, why do most clubs insist on calling their event a ÔÇ£concoursÔÇØ? Doing so eliminates not just the majority of club members, but the greater number of non-member Jaguar owners. They find the word intimidating, and they are not interested. All the organizational work and effort is put forth for the few who are keen on concours.

Now, letÔÇÖs say we actually do convince a member or non-member owner who is not interested in concours to attend our event. HeÔÇÖs not going to have his car judged, so we put him in a category called ÔÇ£Display OnlyÔÇØ. Think about that ÔÇô with such a label we are telling him his Jaguar is not really very good; itÔÇÖs in a category where it is ONLY just allowed on the show field. Why would anyone be pleased to have their Jaguar, their pride and joy, as ÔÇ£OnlyÔÇØ anything? And then to add more insult, his pride and joy is usually set aside in an area for ÔÇ£Display OnlyÔÇØ Jaguars, not too close to the ÔÇ£GoodÔÇØ Jaguars. Why do we do this? Will these ÔÇ£OnlyÔÇØ Jaguars somehow contaminate the ÔÇ£GoodÔÇØ Jaguars? Further, in most events, there is no possibility whatsoever he will come away from the event with any kind of award ÔÇô those are reserved for the ÔÇ£GoodÔÇØ Jaguars. So we denigrate his Jaguar, we set him and his Jaguar aside, we take away the chance he can bring home a momento, and then we are we surprised when he doesnÔÇÖt come back? And we are surprised that he doesnÔÇÖt tell two of his friends that they should go next year?

Why donÔÇÖt we organize events that focus on celebrating the Jaguar marque and their owners? It doesnÔÇÖt mean that the concours program has to end, but it sure does mean that it has to be de-emphasized.

ItÔÇÖs really all about marketing. Think about it from a business perspective. If you have a business and you donÔÇÖt provide what your customers want, they wonÔÇÖt be around long, and neither will your business. This is no different. Clearly, most events are not what most customers (members and non-member owners) want, so they are staying away and the businesses (the clubs and their events) are languishing. IÔÇÖll state it again: ÔÇ£Give ÔÇÿem what they want, and theyÔÇÖll come.ÔÇØ

OK, by now IÔÇÖve likely ruffled some feathers, and some of you are wondering who the h#*l is this Ingram guy to tell us how to run our events. Well, I think I have the credentials to talk about this stuff: First of all, IÔÇÖve been to dozens and dozens of car events over the years, and IÔÇÖm a careful observer of what goes on at them. Secondly, and more importantly, my local club, the Jaguar Car Club of Victoria (thatÔÇÖs Victoria, British Columbia, on the west coast of Canada ÔÇô if you are not sure where that is, go to mapquest.com or any of the other mapping sites and find it) is a fairly new club and we have only held three of these major events that most of you call ÔÇ£concoursÔÇØ. IÔÇÖve been the event chair (note that IÔÇÖm not the ÔÇ£concoursÔÇØ chair) for all three of these events.

Attendance? 2005: 79 Jaguars. 2006: 129 Jaguars. 2007: 160 Jaguars. ThatÔÇÖs right, one hundred and sixty. Look at that map again: youÔÇÖll see that we are on an island, and if you think gasoline is expensive, you should hear how much our participants spend on the ferry they have to take to bring their Jaguar to our event. And another thing ÔÇô the population of our metro area is only around 350,000. So weÔÇÖre in a small city on an island, and we had 160 Jaguars on our show field this summer. WhatÔÇÖs the population of your metro area? And how many Jaguars were at your event this year?

We donÔÇÖt hold a ÔÇ£concoursÔÇØ. Well, we do actually, but we sure donÔÇÖt call it that. Our event is called ÔÇ£Jaguars on the Island ÔÇô A Celebration of Jaguar AutomobilesÔÇØ. Now, I know that other clubs have names for their events, such as ÔÇ£The Running of the JaguarsÔÇØ and ÔÇ£Jaguars Lost in the Clayton TriangleÔÇØ and ÔÇ£Day on the Village GreenÔÇØ. ThatÔÇÖs good, but it has to go much, much further. We make it all about the people and their Jaguars, about celebrating our wonderful marque, and not about the concours. Lower down in our promotional material itÔÇÖs clear that if you want to have your Jaguar judged in a JCNA sanctioned concours, thatÔÇÖs no problem, weÔÇÖll be doing that too. Now before you conclude that we are not supporting the concours program, be aware that out of the 160 Jaguars at our event this year, 44 participated in the judging. So the concours portion of our event was bigger than most of your events across the continent.

The 116 Jaguar owners who were not interested in having their car judged are entered in what we call ÔÇ£EnthusiastÔÇØ Division. They get the same gift bag and the same welcome and the same celebrating as the owners of Jaguars in ÔÇ£ChampionÔÇØ, ÔÇ£DrivenÔÇØ, and ÔÇ£SpecialÔÇØ Divisions. No ÔÇ£onlyÔÇØ anything. And they are placed on the field with all other similar Jaguars, so we end up with tatty drivers next to pristine show queens. And what happens is that the E-Type owners are all together, and the XJ40 owners are all together, and they talk, and look at each others cars, and have a great time together. And the owners of the non-judged Jaguars get to see the judging process next door or two cars away, and maybe theyÔÇÖll decide they never want anything to do with that sort of thing, or maybe theyÔÇÖll decide that itÔÇÖs not so intimidating after all, and maybe next year theyÔÇÖll do a little polishing and cleaning and give it a try. Both of these things happen.

Enthusiast Division entries are eligible for popular choice awards, just like at an All British Field Meet. All participants vote for their choice in a bunch of categories that we have made up, like ÔÇ£Classic SportsÔÇØ and ÔÇ£Modern SaloonsÔÇØ. We have good quality awards, three deep in each of these categories, so plenty of the non-judged Jaguar owners go home with a nice award.

(As an aside, I donÔÇÖt know what the All British Field Meets in other parts of the continent are like, but the three of them in the northwest are doing very well. For example, there were around 750 cars at the Portland (Oregon) ABFM on Labor Day weekend this year. And the Vancouver (BC) ABFM regularly attracts more than 500, and their day is most often cold and wet. ABFMs are all about celebrating the people and the cars, not about concours, so perhaps some lessons can be taken from them.)

ThereÔÇÖs more.

Be nice to the people. When they arrive, tell them how glad you are that they are there. Tell them how gorgeous their Jaguar is. (If you have members who talk down other peopleÔÇÖs Jaguars, find a way, any way, to get them to smarten up.) Bottled water is cheap ÔÇô bring in a bunch and give it away to the participants. When they are leaving, say ÔÇ£thanks for comingÔÇØ and ÔÇ£see you next yearÔÇØ.

Have other stuff for people to do. Not everyone wants to sit around a show field all day. This year we operated a shuttle service to a nearby shopping area, and it was busy all day long. Bring in an ice cream truck. Bring in other vendors. Hire a clown or a juggler or a musician. Set up a croquet pitch. Hold a bocce ball tournament. Have some local artists display their work. ThereÔÇÖs endless possibilities to add to the event and make it more fun.

IÔÇÖll stop now. If any of this sounds like IÔÇÖm putting anyone down, I apologize, as that is certainly not my intent. But most clubs just keep on doing things the same old way without any radical or creative thinking, and I really just want all our events to be better and better attended. IÔÇÖll look forward to feedback and ideas. I wonÔÇÖt look forward to suggestions that what we do out here on the west coast of Canada is somehow unique and wonÔÇÖt work elsewhere. If anyone wants to talk directly to me about any of this, IÔÇÖd welcome that opportunity - IÔÇÖm easy to contact.

Doug Ingram

Apparently I was being very sloppy with my last post and I made a few errors with the figures I quoted. So to correct.

You had 1406 total recorded entries made in the local club concours events. (Remember also that this was a CC year, which sort of distorts these figures just a little). Of this total number, 218 exhibitors made 556 of these entries by making two or more entries each. (In fact the average on that is that they entered 2.55 classes each).

So making this correction to reflect these multiple entry's, you end up with a figure of only 1066 individuals participating in the judged events at JCNA sanctioned concours.

Might also be interesting to note that the average attendance at each show was 28.6 persons with the NC and NE regions having the highest attended shows, just slightly above average at 31.3 persons each.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn

Edited on 2007-11-20 10:04:57

Edited on 2007-11-20 10:01:20

Jerry.

Using the figure of 1,408 concour judged entries which is the actual number that the records reflect. When adjusted to take into consideration those that enter more than one event. The figure of 1,106 participants would more accurately reflect the number of individual JCNA club members that have participated in JCNA fully sanctioned concours events each year.

That would be made up from 206 JCNA members whom averaged 2.4 appearances each while 900 others had entered their cars in a single event.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Se

Mark,

Thanks for expanding on your earlier post. As I said in my previous post, I think there needs to be a dialog on how to attract more entrants. Perhaps the Driven class needs to be something along the lines you have mentioned and the current Driven class needs to be called something else. Here are the polar opposites I experienced in my part of the world this summer.

I passed on the Oregon club's concours this year because they wanted a $70 entry fee for display. The same fee to enter in either one of the judged divisions. That was just the entry fee, nothing else other than the goodie bag. I had just finished moving and didn't have time to prepare my car for concours judging. While I am sure it was a nice concours and I could have washed my car and put it on display, come on for $70? Seems to me they didn't want display cars.

The Victoria club on the other hand had a very reasonable entry fee and welcome you with open arms no matter what class you enter. Its a first rate show and is growing! Besides the concours, they also wrap a number of other activities around the weekend. I took the X-Type since I had three teenagers with me and we were making a weeks holiday of it. Entered display and had a blast. Display class cars compete for popular choice. While I didn't win anything, it was nice to be recognized for showing up and still compete for something.

My point is that one show is growing the other is not. I suppose clubs across N. America fit everywhere in between in their approach to their shows and participation. As one poster said about total concours entrants, "it's pretty consistent around 1500 concours entry a year." I don't know if that's net entries (including those that show at more than one concours) or not. I hope its net, because if not, then how low is it really? When I look around at Jaguar events, just like other clubs, I don't see the participants (including myself) getting younger. If we are not growing, given the age of the membership, ultimately that number will decline.

Its my guess that many clubs look to JCNA for leadership in this area and have a tendency not to think outside the box as the Victoria club has. That's why I feel JCNA needs to take the lead in creating new interest in concours and growing the number of participants at a more casual level. As Mark suggests this will bring out more entrants and some of those will want to compete at a higher level with their cars. Ultimately, the upper division of our concours will be stronger for it.

Jerry Liudahl
Eugene, Oregon

Thank you Jerry. ;-)

Richard, Stevo, and I are on the same page regarding intent, if not necessarily on implementation.

As has already been pointed out, it takes a bunch of money to prepare a 100 pt. car. For those people, judging should be as tough, or tougher (IMHO) than it's been. These folks deserve accolades for the time effort and money expended to set the standard of "as left the factory."

The problem is that not many people have the time or money to recreate an as-left-the-factory car. You can tell people to enjoy the experience and not take it seriously, but after you've shown your well-maintained driver against trailer queens a few times, and been told every time that your hose clamps are wrong, or your tire size is incorrect, or you have a few stone chips and a door ding, what's the point? Why spend dozens of hours with Q-tips and toothbrushes, washing, waxing, and vacuuming until your arms ache? You aren't competitive and you know it. Just give the car a quick once-over and put it in display.

As a result, after a few years, people with sub-99 point cars stop showing them. If the goal of concours is to preserve the marque, we've lost all these people because they aren't competing on any level. My goal, in suggesting some form of casual judging, is not to water down judging for the serious competitors. In fact, Dick Cavicke will attest that I'm a downright hard-nosed SOB when it comes to enforcing judging standards in serious competition. I'm ducking as I say this, but my judges instigated the strict tire-size enforcement on those unobtanium odd-ball tire sizes from the early seventies when we gave a competitor a deduction for a more commonly available tire that he had never before received a deduction for.

I look at it this way. Every major competitive endeavor has lower levels of competition. Baseball has farm teams, Football has college and below that high school. Hockey has junior hockey. Every sport has youth leagues and local adult fun leagues that are tailored to the skill levels of the participants. In JCNA, your driver is nit-picked just the same as a if you were trying to win the JCNA trophy for your class. Worse yet, you're often competing against a Tiger Woods every time you show. If you're not willing or able to shell out thousands of dollars for golf lessons, every time you're up against him, the experience is a constant reminder that you shouldn't be on the same course with him.

But get out with a bunch of buddies with close to the same skill levels, allow a few mulligans and gimmes, play winter rules in the summer, and it all becomes fun.

What I'm saying is that we're misapplying an exacting, minutely detailed judging procedure to cars it shouldn't be applied to and in the process we're losing the people we're supposed to be encouraging to preserve their Jaguars.

Let's recognize the cars that have something right, be it most original, best exterior, best interior, best detailing, and encourage them to continue until they are ready to compete in the big leagues. A guy with a ratty old Jaguar that's all original, but with the wear and tear (patina?) of decades of use. Why not rewarded him for maintaining it with authentic components?. A lady has kept the interior of her late-model daily driver Jag immaculate, but the occasional parking ding is unavoidable. Why not recognize her efforts at keeping the interior like new? A newly painted E-type with nary a paint flaw or a sparkling rebuilt and installed engine deserve recognition.

The intention of my suggestion is to make entry-level, local, non-competitive judging fun, engaging, and unintimidating by suspending all the rules that make judging unfun, stand-offish, and intimidating. I would like it to be accurate, in terms of accurately assessing the car's authenticity, but I would like to see it be scoreless, local, and educational -- focusing on the positive rather than dwelling on the negative.

Once we inculcate entrants into the fun aspects of judging and show them what we look for, I'm hoping they'll make the jump from a casual approach to concours to a competitive approach. Even if they don't, at least we are encouraging them to improve their cars through mild competition, rather than driving them into a display class where there's no incentive to keep their cars authentic.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Edited on 2007-11-19 13:59:14

The facts are that in 2002 out of the claimed 6,000 members of JCNA only 3% or 194 of them found it within themselves to have the desire to exhibit their cars in two or more JCNA santioned Concous events. This increase to 4% or 123 out of 6,000 in 2004 and decreased to only 3.4% or 206 out of 6,000 in 2007.

I think you have to forget the numbers recorded by the individual clubs because for most part, people that attend these shows are treating it like a day out with the local Jag guys and not in any way done to earn serious competition points within the JCNA organisation.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Se

Driven rules allow a number of things including wider tires to make it easier for driven cars to compete... you can also have any performance/reliability mods as you want since the engine cpt is not judged. other safety items like brakes are not judged either... Radios aren't deducted either, are they ? other things like steering wheels can usually be swapped in minutes... i have a nardi on my E-type and would swap it for the original when i used to enter Driven division.

this seems like a right compromise between the hard core Champion division and "fun" judging. I dont' see what else can be relaxed without going overboard... wheel size ?

but not in Championship... if someone enters C and throws a tantrum because his tires are to big, he should have read the rules first. chances are these guys only enter their local event anyway... I've seen one guy like that... nice 74 series 3 e-type with 4 tail pipes, bitching and making a stint about the deduction... even though he'd only enter his home concours. This is why "casual" judging woudln't work... woudln't it be fair not to deduct the 4 tail pipes when the next entrant has retained the original twin pipes ? heck no...

as to FUN or CASUAL judging, I'm not sure i see the point.

those who do not want to be judged can still enter in Display... personally... I love DISPLAY ! after 2 or 3 years of driven or modified (which i only did a couple of times since it's nothing more than a detailing competition) I've been enjoying display only... I get more time to talk to others, enjoy the cars, take pictures, etc...

Display entrants still love Jaguars, love participating and supporting the clubs... it's the best of both world.

the only problem is that display is often ignored and some clubs don't even bother reporting them in the results even though display entrants have still paid an entry fee and played their part is the event turn out.

Now, nothing prevents local clubs from adding fun/casual categories to their concours geared to the display class. best memorabilia/presentation, most fun car, popular vote, etc... that's a local thing, it's up to the club to do it depending on how many cars they get in display.

at the national level, you could even encourage participation by adding a participation award to the member who entered the most events in a year... in C, D, S AND display... that woudl be fun...

about participation, it's not down over all. there might be some local variations from year to year but overall, it's pretty consistent around 1500 concours entry a year.

but again, since some clubs dont report DISP, it's hard to be sure... we have 86 Display entries reported this year, vs 56 last year and 49 in 2005... are more members choosing display or are more clubs reporting them ?

This subject is similar to my "Clear Bra thread" After my back and fourth with the JCNA people I came to the conclusion not to show my car any longer. I was in the driven division with my 1965 E-type and did well for two years. I have wider tires and a cool cat fan and aluminum radiator. Plus Wllwood front brakes and a elctronic distributor . All of these mods where accepted by the judges, and made driving the car in todays conditions all the better. I also had a clear bra to protect the paint in the front of the car. Most of the time the judges would not even see it. And sometimes when they did they would not make a deduction for it. However on one or two out of 4. shows they would mark off 0.5 of a point.
As you know this is a a lot, and can make the difference in not even placing.

I think that the driven division should have more lutitude. We are suppose to drive these cars!!!
1965 4.2 E-type Coup
Ron Avery Winnetka Ca

That should have said "any particular disagreement" - doh!

Jerry

Trying my best not to have to put my flame proof suit on here, so I will try to choose my words carefully. You have lost me to show concours. Not because I have any particular agreement, but because my car (67 Mk2) under the current points system is no longer competitive. I will still judge others cars, but not show. Here is why.

I have shown the Mk2 for a number of years. I annually drive her 3,000-4,000 miles, regardless of weather, to shows and on tours. I had the good fortune to find a low mileage original car (except for paint) and over the years we have won our class in numerous concours and have won regional and N. American championships in Driven class (with original size wheels, tires and radio!) She is still a beautiful car, but while the dozen year old paint is aging gracefully, isn't as vibrant as it once was. There are a lot more small chips from rocks, the carpets are more worn, etc., etc. The car has been driven, enjoyed and used. She would still make a respectable showing, against the newer restorations out there. So what is the point of this epistle?

Well, since I drive the car, I have made some modications to make driving her the distances I drive more enjoyable. They include wider tires, cut down spats to fit the former and a smaller diameter/thicker rimmed non-original steering wheel and finally a decent stereo. They make those long drives to Canada and back much more enjoyable. Originality has its place, but at the JCNA concours there currently is no class for me to show my Mk2 in (excluding popular choice). In talking with other owners, I know my example is not unique. I guess the question is do we want more or less cars at shows?

If the answer is more, I would encourage a dialog as how to include more cars that don't fit (real or imagined) the current two class system in JCNA. I think Mark Stephenson's post had some good starting points for that conversation. I would hate to see happen to JCNA Concours what has ultimately killed other marque's concours programs - a shrinking pool of participants.

Jerry Liudahl
Eugene, Oregon

Hello Again Gentlemen,

I've been outside all day working on my new dream garage and just checked in.......

I am not looking for anyone to agree with me or not to agree with me. There is an observation to be concerned about. Attendance and membership is down. Why? I don't have the answer to that. Not sure if anyone does. All I know is I have a concern for one of the best organizations I've been involved in, the JCNA and its local chapters. Maybe some new ideas would be in order.

Just to clear up any confusion, William Jenkins made a strong statement and quoted......"If you and Richard don't like the rules of the game then don't "play". I for one have been playing by these rules for a long time. We have been entered in Driven in the past, and after self-restoration in the Champion division many times and take the hits. We have returned for more. I will continue under these present rules and be happy with that if that is the case. I am not threatening to leave if my ideas are not made bible. My suggestions are intended to try to help solve a problem. My intentions are constructive, not destuctive.

As far as my proposals, agreed it would be difficult to lose a award because someone drove futher that me. But you know, next time I may drive 3 hours to their Concours and beat them! My other ideas have positives and negative to them also, but remember the objective, help solve a problem.

And.... it's not just the points. If I entered only to get first place all the time I wouldn't go. Our car has done well recently. We drive it to the shows. If I knew 3 cars were going taht were to come off trailers after full restorations, I'd still go. I would welcome that. I would spend all day taking pictures of them. I don't care about the points. It's not all "points". We go to have fun, meet great people, and enjoy all of the cars. It was a blast a few months ago to end up with a first place at a Concours, just edging out a beautiful competitor. We never expected it. In retrospect, many time we left Concours dissapointed, but we keep coming back. We had to drop out of JCNA for a few years because of moves and health. I missed it tremendously. I couldn't wait to get back in the "game".

By the way, I also belong to the NCRS, the National Corvette Restorers Society, one of the most strict and critical of all organizations. I own a 1959 Corvette, and am preparing for upcoming events here. For example, they use high tech equipment to ensure the original broach marks on engine blocks have not been tampered with to verify the engine numbers have not been restamped. That's pretty critical.
The NCRS in fact awards points for miles driven and points for the window sticker. They promote cars to be driven to events. This adds a bit of easiness to a stressful judging process. They did it to attract cars to attend judged meets because attendance was down. Attendance has been up ever since they added those bonuses.

Weather or not my ideas are considered makes no difference to me. I see a problem and am concerned about it. I love the JCNA and the Jaguars and the people and the fun. I am simply trying to come up with some incentives for more people to come to JCNA and to events. If it happens to work, fine. If not, change it to something that does. Other ideas to help the cause are welcome.

It's sad that some people are shying away.

Bye for Now........Going for a ride with Cathie in her E-Type!
Rich

There you go Steve that is constructive criticism. William has managed to get his knickers in a twist over something I never said. I was in fact very careful not to agree or disagree with any of the proposals put up for discussion so far. However I certainly applaud the people like yourself and Richard that have had the gumption to actually put suggestions forward and not just sit and offer nothing but criticism.

William, on the other subject that I never mentioned but you decided to bring up. Even the most prestigious concours in the world, awards owners that drive their cars over and above those just trailer them. If two cars in a class are judged to be equals at the Peddle Beach Concours. If one of them has participated in the rally, that one will get awarded the first place trophy over the other that did not.

Your also right that there are an abundance of other shows that Jaguar owners can attend. The 39 Judges at an event in Ohio last year in fact placed my car in the top 100 cars. For this little achievement I received a six-foot high trophy. Just over 3,000 assorted makes of cars attended that show. So for a Jag to show that well in against all sorts of gorgeous production cars and fantastic specialty hot rods was the absolute highlight of the year for me. In the same year I won a first place at a car show that was attended by 1,400 other gorgeous cars. On the other side I got second place out of two cars in championship class at a JCNA event held in Ohio because I was scored down for stone chips and a scratch in the paintwork that I collected on my way to the show. Actually that was the last JCNA Concours that I have entered my car in for judging to date. No this was not the results of a temper tantrum, I just don't see any point spending all that money until things change a just little.

I understand that a least one of the clubs near me are about to have a club class incorporated into their concours to encourage more participation in judging events getting people and their cars out of the display area. I would expect this the follow the lines much like what has been suggested here so far. Guess time will tell if this is becomes a popular move on their part.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn

Bob,

My "constructive criticism" is to leave the rules exactly the way they are. Just because I don't agree with the proposals listed here or your "in transit damage" ideas does not mean my opinion that the rules are great as is has no merit just because you disagree with me.

Over the years, concours participation has had its ups and downs. This happens for many reasons, the least of which are the present and better than average JCNA concours rules.

Richard Mozzetta offered some proposed rules changes and his opinions. I offered mine, it's as simple as that. If you and Richard don't like the rules of the game, then don't "play." If the concours rules committee were to adopt "casual judging" rules like these (which they won't) you and he may change your minds and show your cars but I know a whole lot of others who still participate that would not show their cars as a result of these changes.

There are plenty of "casual judging" car shows around and I don't feel the JCNA needs to compete with them. On the contrary, I strongly believe we need to maintain our present standards and if anything strengthen them rather than loosen them up. I was very much against the allowing of non-factory radios and non-factory wheels in the driven class when they made those changes a few years back and I still feel that way but I don't constantly whine about it. Maybe I should strongly state over and over again that I absolutely, positively REFUSE to show in Driven Class until they change those rules back.

I agree with Bill that you can't very well add points, especially for things like distance. memorabilia and safety equipment which may or may not be in the control of the participant to begin with (like distance).

Can you imagine losing to a car not as nicely prepared as yours because he drove farther than you to the concour? That's a non-starter and a sure way to further reduce the number of concour participants.

However, I see a partial answer as loosening up the rules for the Driven division. To me, tere is an insufficient 'gap' between Champion and Driven divisions. For example, Driven allows wheel changes, but only regarding finish. Why bother which such a trivial relaxation of the rules? If it is a Driven car, then any wheels/tires should be allowed and not judged for authenticity, just cleanliness. The list could go on and on. The idea is to let the genuine Jaguar driver enter his or her car without having to make so many things perfectly authentic.

I believe more separtion between divisions might at least encourage owners of later model Jaguars to enter a more relaxed level of competition.

Also to be considered, is having the Driven division judged not by judges, but by the participants themselves. You couldn't very well use this form of judging to compare cars across the country, so no national awards would be given. But results would be posted in the Jaguar Journal and the website for all to see.

A nice Jag is a nice Jag, and concour participants can easily spot the difference between cars in the same class. Why not let them decide which is worthy of a 1st place trophy and leave the serious points system to the Champion level cars?

Stevo

William. It is so easy to critique other peopleÔÇÖs suggestions without coming up with any of your own. How about giving some constructive critism for a change, give it a shot, what would be your suggestions as a viable alternative to draw more people back to these events and surely your not going to deny that JCNA concours attendance has been gradually falling off over the last few years. I have to quickly add that there is one exceptionally well run concours held each year in Victoria BC Canada that is about the only exception to this rule. They just seem to grow bigger and bigger every year. Maybe we could all take a lesson from them on how they manage to do it.

Like Richard I also know of more than a few people that will not show their Jaguars anymore at JCNA events because they wont take the deductions for wrong size tires or such like. Preparing a car and attending concours events with it, is by no means an inexpensive hobby to be involved in. Why would you expect anybody to go through all that expense and then suffer the agony of putting their cars up for judging when they already know it is not competitive under the present rules, I certainly wont.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Se

I'm sorry Richard but I completely disagree with everything that you are suggesting.

Offsetting or "bonus" points to give credit where none should be given to offset reasonable and actual deductions is unfair to those who have no legitimate deductions under the present rules.

Awarding furthest miles driven and other handicap points are unfair to those who cannot receive them.

I also completely disagree with awarding bonus points for those who add things like fire extinguishers and brochures which have nothing to do with the car itself. These are CAR shows, not memorabilia contests.

Insisting on the authentic size tires is a very good rule and retaining this rule will have virtually no effect on concours participation other than possibly the entrant you spoke about. My guess is that once that person gets over his temper tantrum, he'll enter his car in future JCNA concours.

Hello All....I've read the entire post regarding theses issues in the AGM thread and here and would like to make a few comments and suggestions.

I feel the most important thing we're trying to do here is attract and retain membership. After all, the more enthusiasts there are in JCNA, the better it is for all. We are all supposed to have fun here, drive our cars, care for them, keep the "marque" alive, and show our cars occasion at events and participate in local activities.

I have seen a downturn in the number of entrants at shows and regions I'm familiar with over the years too. Just looking at the events here on-line over the past and counting entries, it is obvious. This is not good. As a participant in many concours over the last 13 years with our S3 E-Type, I have spoken to many other owners about the Concours. Many are intimidated about their cars' being picked over yes, but I always told them to remember to have fun and not be embarassed over points. Cars don't have to be perfect. Try to stay focused on fun and the rest will happen naturally over time.

However, it seems there are many classes, and judging all these cars is tiring work for the volunteers. I commend their efforts in this task. I don't know if more classes are the answer or not. It may help.

Maybe a diffent approach is in order to help the main objective. I recommend the following to attract and retain owners and to get more participation for judged events.

1- Point system. Create an "offset" to the deduction system. Provide methods to "add" points to a score described below. Maybe not include this for National or Regional standings, but include it for the Concours awards themselves to help reduce stress and give people something to look forward to. Whenever we go to shows we think...."how many points are we going to LOOSE this time. Offset it with some POSITIVES. All it would mean is a little more math at the shows, and maybe at the end of the year.

(a)- Award points for the number of miles driven to events. Scale it so a certain amount yields different levels of points. e.g. 1-50 miles = xx points. 50-100 miles +xx points, etc, etc. Also maybe give a separate award to "farthest" driven to the event.

(b)- Create a windshield sticker, to be applied on the inside of w/s, with the "JCNA" logo, spelled out "Jaguar Clubs of North America" with the web address www.jcna.com and tel#. Make it free to all JCNA members. It's free advertising when members take their cars out and people see it. Award some points for cars with this sticker.

(c)- Award safety points. If owners display safety items, e.g. a fire extinguisher, give them a few points for that. It not only adds some scoring, it may save their car or someone else's car some day. In all the years of attending JCNA Concours, I hardly ever see a fire extinguisher near cars. I for one keep one with the car at all times and keep it near the car at shows in the event of an emergency on the field.

(d)- Award points for accessories/memorabilia. This one may be tricky but should be considered. They should not be attached to the car as to reduce authenticity, but have categories like: brochures, Jaguar logo'd floor mats, tools, etc.

2- Authenticity:
(a)- Absolutely, positively, without question, drastically reduce, or totaly eliminate the authenticity deduction for tire size in competition. I have seen so many owners totally digusted when losing an award over this. Most recently I saw a beautiful, near 100 point car get "slashed"(pun intended) for this. The owner said as he was leaving..."last time I'm getting judged! This is ridiculus!" This is a safety item guys. Slightly bigger tires are safer. It could save a life. Where it is never checked to see if the authenticity of the "original" engine is installed, why do owners get slammed for such a thing? It's not like a 74 E-Type with a "leaper" mounted on the bonnet! It is not noticeable to anyone unless they read the sidewall. Judges don't read serial numbers on engines either so why should they read tire sizes?
I strongly feel this would make competition more fun as well as attract and retain members.

Thanks for listening........
Rich Mozzetta
Micco, Fl