New rule regarding license plate frames

By MY recollection of the discussion re license brackets/frames/plates at the AGM: If the car left the factory with a front and rear license BRACKET(and apparently many of the models did -including the early sedans, the XK's and E-types -either installed or in the trunk) -the bracket must be available for judging -either on the car or off. Acceptable FRAMES would include those promoting the Jaguar marque or a Jaguar dealer's frame -(in order to "promote"/incourage the dealer's continued support of the various local concours & club activities (1e -How can you promote the Dealer's support if you make their "advertising" license plate frame non-acceptable and require removal for showing??) All other Frames were non-acceptable (unless listed in the parts catalogue). There was no mention of license PLATES -other than (if present) they must be installed on an "authenic/accepteble" bracket and with an "acceptable" frame.
As for CARPET OVER-LAY MATS: The discussion was not whether or not they should be removed (that decision had been decided by the previous rule and was in the RULE BOOK)-but -that the plush Mats in the VandenPlas and Sovereign were part of what made them the VdP & Sovereign -and should be also judged (see Gregory A's comments). There was no discussion about the difficulty which might be encountered about removing the mats, as removal had been previously required. (How was this handled under the previous rule??) The "new/additional" rule was that the MATS would ALSO be judged -(ie not a substitution -But an addition.). Personally, I think that Kenneth's suggestion of moving the one or two rear mats sufficently to allow judgement of the underlying carpet is a very good one (though if I knew that the carpet was to be judged for cleanliness, I would carefully take the mats out at home to clean the carpet and get me a couple of easily removable after-market mats to protect the carpet for th day of the show and re-install the originals afterwards

Jerry Ellison
Fayetteville, NC
XK140 OTS

"Perhaps a better solution however, would be to allow the car to be judged with the overmats in place but to allow the judges (or have the owner) lift or move them sufficiently to determine the condition of what is below (which I don't believe is currently possible?)."

There ya go. There's always *somebody* who wants to cloud the issue with simple, agreeable, common sense solutions :-)

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Edited on 2006-06-26 19:23:15

I don't have a front plate on my car (albeit not an XKE) and it did not come with a frame either so my opinion there may be somewhat moot. After thinking about it, if the car had come with one, I would probably want it to maintain its "completeness" but would not mount it unless I had to.

As to the overmats - which it did come with and still has - I am a long way from any potential concours shows so my opinion there may be somewhat moot as well but......it seems to me that overmats - even though supplied with the car - should be removed. They simply seem to have the potential of "hiding" carpets that could be extremely dirty, damaged or even missing from the car entirely - something that a license plate frame could not do for an XKE's bonnet.

In this regard, the overmats are probably better compared to a steering wheel cover or sheepskin seat covers (for which the case could also be made that "they were dealer supplied" etc.) than to a license plate frame.

Perhaps a better solution however, would be to allow the car to be judged with the overmats in place but to allow the judges (or have the owner) lift or move them sufficiently to determine the condition of what is below (which I don't believe is currently possible?).

Kenneth L. Cantor
1992 Series III V12 VDP (No. 24 of 100)
ex 1987 Series III V12 VDP

I understand the concept of standing on principles. I also understand "cutting your nose off to spite your face" and "pick your battles" :-)

So okay Doug I get your point but maybe my point was lost because I tried to keep it brief. So here goes.

I spent six days preparing my car. I turn up at the show and during the morning preparation period I am reminded that I definitely have to remove the plush carpets this year. This really bugs me because unlike other cars in this class, my car came with these carpets installed.

The front passenger side and rear driverÔÇÖs side plush carpets came out without too much trouble. However the rear passenger side one fits really tight and this one got caught up under the motor or actuator of the front passenger seat and all my tugging has caused some of the stitching to come loose. I am pissed and I reluctantly continue to lay out the carpets out on this pink bed sheet in front of my car for display and immediately notice a huge number of sand fleas hopping over the pink sheet and disappearing into my carpets. I picked them up and start soaking them in carpet cleaner in the hopes I would be killing all the fleas or at the very least force them all to evacuate. (Turns out neither worked. Some of the fleas found their way into the bag that my cloths were in and the boot of the car is now infested in fleas. I have had to dust it all with white flea powder.

Very trivia maybe but still bloody annoying and extremely time consuming).

Anyway this put me in one heck of a real piss ass mood. So while my plush carpets were drying in the hot sun, I went down to the entry tent to withdraw my car from judging. I was told to leave my car in and the judges would inspect the carpets wherever I decided to put them, draped over the backs of the deck chairs if I wanted, just provided they were out of the car as the rules state.

Now it is also worth noting that these particular carpets are irreplaceable because they are not the same colour and there quality is far superior to all the other plush carpets that the Series III cars got.

Next I have to deal with this absolutely ridiculous number plate surround rule. I start thinking if these owners want to have these bloody awful and tasteless number plate surrounds on their cars. Why on earth are they not forced to remove them for judging, like others of us are forced to do with items such as Doug Dwyers alternative wheels and my plush carpets.

Bob.

"As far as changing wheels. This cannot possibly be considered in anyway similar to either the carpet or the plate surround situations."

I see your point there, Bob. And I guess none of us likes being told what to do. My point, though, was simply that there are some (really not too burdensome) solutions to this issue other than vowing to never return !

I understand the concept of standing on principles. I also understand "cuttng your nose off to spite your face" and "pick your battles" :-)

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Doug. It was my understanding that there was a rule in force but written very ambiguously. It indicated that all overlay mats were to be removed which on this side of the world was understood to mean all overlay mats no matter their origin.

Unfortunately with the rest of what you wrote, we obviously remember it differently but thatÔÇÖs not at all important.

Bob.

Just to be accurate, Bob, the rule regarding removal of the overmats is new for the 2006 season, it was not in effect last year..... :) Further, I did remove them as per your request.....

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

Thank you all for your replies. Sorry but I donÔÇÖt agree with the guys that say this is just trivia. If I did I would not have written what I did.

Doug Dwyer As far as changing wheels. This cannot possibly be considered in anyway similar to either the carpet or the plate surround situations. The main difference being that you have made a conscious choice to drive your car around with non-authentic wheels fitted. Changing them to show the car was again a free choice on your part alone. You are not being ordered to remove part of your car under the threat that if you dont you will lose points.

In reply to Doug Ingram. Last year when I judged your car, you certainly did not consider it so trivia then. As I remember you were certainly not in favour of removing your carpets when I asked you too. In fact if my memory serves me correctly, when you protested, I agreed with you to leave then in place as I did not agree with the rule anyway. I also did not make a deduction for them.

BTW I did have the carpets laid out on a pink bed sheet. That is how I spotted the 100's of Sand flea's jumping into the carpets. Had the carpets been directly on the grass I would never have seen the brown fleas on my brown carpets.

The suggestion that I carry the carpets around in the boot so that I can show the car perhaps a total of six times a year is totally un-acceptable to me. The car came with the carpets in place and that is the way the car should be shown if and when it is shown again. Would any of you other guys agree to remove any other known standard item from your car before judging then why should I?

Anyway for or against it, trivia or not, this is all supposed to be fun and bottom line is you live with what you are happy with. I for just one very minor inconsequential individual does not like it the way it is so, I will choose not further participate.

Greg. My vanity plate cover is a clear plastic lense with a plain chrome frame around the outside. I lose 1 point with it under the new rules.

Bob.

Clearly, with regard to the fleece carpets in a Series III, the easiest thing to do is this: when preparing the car for concours showing you are going to remove the mats anyway, so simply leave them out; on show day they can just be pulled out of the boot for showing. On the more modern Jaguars, the overmats come out very easily.
As the two Dougs have said, it is a fairly minor issue.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type
1992 xj40 Sovereign

I think that your term "utterly trivial" is appropriate here, Doug.

As for the display of the mats outside the car, is it unreasonable to expect entrants to bring a suitable small ground sheet or other, upon which the mats can be placed and be insulated from the dirty world around?

Geez.....

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

Edited on 2006-06-25 11:11:28

"The difficulty of removal and the dirt and debris inevitably attracted to the underside of the carpet mats was, sadly, not taken into account."

Mats:
Although it would seem a cryin' shame to do so, it may be more practical to simply leave the fleece mats uninstalled for concours events thus avoiding the problems of discovering "new" dirt and difficult on-field removal and reinstallation.

License plates:
Are we all on the same page? I *think* Bob is referring to the clear license plate covers which are the actual size of the plate itself, covering the entire plate and usually with a thin chrome perimeter trim. They are tasteful and attractive in my opinion but, in any case, can be easily removed in a matter of minutes, pre-judging....so as to avoid even the possibility of a judging dispute. An "easy fix" if ever there was one.

Heck, I used to swap non-authentic road wheels and steering wheel for the correct items for a concours event, and then reinstall the incorrect ones afterward....so the matter of mats and license frames seems utterly trivial in my mind. :-)

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Bob:

Despite the issues related to the new judging rules it sounds as though you had a good day: a decent standing and nice people - surely this outweighs even these annoyances.

But a couple of clarifications: as I understand it, a clear cover over the license plate itself should attract no penalty points. It was license plate frames themselves (in metal or dark plastic) which were the object of this rule; judges need to use common sense in the application of rules. When rule changes are first introduced it is difficult to have them evenly and logically applied. If I understand correctly, the clear cover you have is formed to produce an edge that wraps wround the license itself. This was NOT what was envisioned as a penalty-attracting plate frame in my understanding.

With regard to the Vanden Plas and Sovereign fleece mats: I was the person that introduced this topic at the AGM. The standing rule, designed to cover *aftermarket* mats, was that they must be removed from the car because they are not original and therefore are not judged; if left in place, they attract a "non-authentic" deduction. My point was that all Sovereigns and Vanden Plas cars came with factory overmats as part of their equipment; further, the majority, virtually all, Jaguars made since the year 1999 or so also have factory carpet overmats as part of the normal equipment and thus these mats must be present and judged.
You are absolutely correct regarding the Series III VDP and SOvereign fleece mats and the difficulty of removal. The rear mats are damned-near impossible to remove unless the front seats are moved on the electric mechanism to the highest position and even then it is a struggle because the thick mat must fit under the motor housing.

It was decided, however, to blend the judging of the factory-provided mats with the old rule of "mats out". The difficulty of removal and the dirt and debris inevitably attracted to the underside of the carpet mats was, sadly, not taken into account.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type
1992 xj40 Sovereign

Bob Higgs,
Please contact me off line.

Steve Kennedy
JCNA Concours Chair in charge of fun
skennedyecentral.com
303-489-3955

"Today was not a good day. My car won its class with a good score and I met a lot more good people"

Bob, stop and think about what you;ve just said. What more could you want ??? Sounds like a great day to me :-)

Cheers,

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Bob,
This is suppose to be fun. I participated in concours for three years and I can write volumes about the inconsistant judging. But I will not dwell on that issue. This is suppose to be fun. First, enjoy your car and enjoy the relationships you encounter along the way. And do like I did last year. SLALOM! It's a blast.
Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Well to day I got to show and judge with the new rules in place and quite frankly I think they totally suck....

First I am now required to strip my car down for judging. Meaning my plush carpets that my 92 V-12 VDP Daimler double six/Jaguar came fitted standard with has to come out for judging. This is not an easy task because on my car, the rear passenger side carpet fits very very tightly under the electric motor/ actuator of the front passenger seat. Repeated removal and replacement of this carpet over the concours season will surely result in its total destruction. So needless to say it will not be removed in future. If they want to deduct points for them I will just withdraw the car from judging.

Second. I had never noticed before but like myself, many people up here have license plate trim /cover pieces. I was totally embarrassed today as a judge to be forced to act like a absolute ass and take deductions for perfectly good, none intrusive, plain and in total good taste plates while at the same time ignoring god awful looking, totally gaudy and in bad taste plates. Plates that I would never be seen putting on my cars. Something is terribly wrong with all this....Would not surprise me to be reading next that we are to allow gun racks to be installed in the rear windows on some of these cars and manufacturer and parts dealers decals stuck all over the cars will now be acceptable.

Like a lot of other people I have a vanity plate. Mine cost me $500 so I like to kep it nice. I have a plastic cover in it to keep it in good condition. This cover and its surround now earns a deduction yet the guy alongside me with some gaudy revolting frame gets his for nothing, totally mental.

Back to the plush carpets. So today I laid my plush carpets out on the grass field as required by the new laws.. Immediately about 1000 nasty little critters started crawling into them to make their home. Had I put them back in my car, my car would have been become totally infested with them all. AinÔÇÖt going to happen again my friends. I like my car far more than I like participating with it in Concours events. I will not show the car if I am forced to disassemble it for judging.

On top of all this you have a JCNA affiliated Jaguar club President that has issued a total ban on an individual without ever being required to produced even the remotest proof of any of the wrong doing that he has accused the individual of. This ban has effectively restricts this individual who has been a member in good standing of JCNA for the past nine years from participation in all past and future JCNA sanctioned events that his club organizes. All attempts over the past three years by this individual to get mediation from the executive of JCNA has fallen completely on totally ears. So our membership in JCNA gets a member what ????????.

Today was not a good day. My car won its class with a good score and I met a lot more good people but that in no way offset the stupidity of these rule changes. So as of now I have had enough. I decided this afternoon, that at the end of this year I will be withdrawing from all participation in concours and other events as both a participant and as a Judge. If some time in the future it happens that some sanity is restored to this organization. I will possibly reconsider but I have to say that today was a real an absolute bummer.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
65 Mk II 3.4 Automatic
59 Mk I 3.4 Automatic

Guys, I was kidding about showing it with the antenna ball. :-)

But the reference to interior deductions does raise a serious question.

I have a state inspection and license registration sticker on my windscreen, obviously no deduction there. But I also have a company parking decal on the windscreen along with a Jaguar Club of Houston decal. I would guess both of those result in no deduction.

But, on the rear side window I have a Antique Automobile Club of America decal. Is that a deduction? If so I would argue that any affiliation decal for an organization that encourages the hobby should be exempt.

Many more stickers and decals and I am going to need a periscope to see where I am going. :-)

Regards, John

Doug,

The section in the rule book you cited (Chapter VI, Page 12, Section G. Subsection f) applies to the INTERIOR ONLY. John mentioned something about an antenna ball which is something that is judged by the EXTERIOR judge. See Chapter VI, Section F. EXTERIOR for possible deductions for that antenna ball.

John,

Check the rule book, Chapter VI, Page 12, Section G.f. "Non-Factory Accessories: Items such as after-market compasses, clocks, medallions, stuffed animals and similar momentos or charms will receive a non-authentic deduction."

The chart on page 11 of that chapter specifies 2.0 points each, with no maximum.

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

Edited on 2006-06-21 15:03:29

Thanks for the insight Gregory. I guess I could take an erasable marker and write "We love Our Jaguars" on the chrome before every concours.................. Just kidding.

I guess the frames come off before judging. Either that or I don't bother and just show in display. But, my Mickey Mouse ears British Flag antenna ball stays. :-)

And not to beat this to death, but I used to see cars displayed with stuffed jaguars on the dash, piknik hampers in the boot, etc. Are these also now deductions? Or has that always been the case and I just didn't know it.

Regards, John

Jerry,

I would concur with Gregory, as long as the clear plastic covered the plate only, it should be ignored.

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

Doug,

Thanks I did miss your previous comment.

Jim

Jerry:
As far as I know there is no rear license plate bracket for the Mark 2 as delivered to Canada or the US. With regard to a plastic license plate cover, this is not the sort of thing mentioned under the new rules since the rules do not cover the license plates themselves. It is the license plate frame that is in question; if the plastic not only forms a cover for the plate but a frame as well, it *might* fall under the rule. If it sits within a frame, then I wouldn't expect a penalty for the plastic piece.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Gregory and Doug,

I probably already know the answer to this question based on what I have already read on this thread. However, never being one that is afraid to overstate the obvious, here goes.

Assuming the proper license plate frame and bracket (was there a rear bracket for a Mk2?) is a thin plastic cover to protect the plate a deduction? Since we can run period correct plates here in Oregon in mint condition, and they are expen$ive, it is cheap insurance. My guess is that they would be a deduction. If so, would they be with a Jaguar decal on them?

Coming to a concours near you.

Best,

Jerry Liudahl
Old Irish Racing
www.oldirish.com
1967 Mk2
1975 XJ6C
1997 XJ6

Jim,

I guess you missed my posts above, which directly answered your question. Again, the license plates themselves are NOT covered in the rule book, therefore NO deduction can be taken.

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

I'd like to thank everyone for commenting on this question but the license frame is not what I was concerned with. I understand that if the frame promotes Jaguar or a Jaguar dealer, at least for a driven class, then it is ok to leave it on during judging.

My question was is there an issue with what is contained within the boundaries of the license plate frame. I realize that vehicle license plates are fine as they are required by the various state and provincial governments in order for us to operate our vehicles on the roads. Some require only a rear plate and some require both a front and rear plate.

But, will I loose points if I leave one of two non-regulatory plates I have had on the front of my car at different times. One is the South Carolina Flag and the other identifies the gated community in which our family has a home in South Carolina. I have been removing the plates for concours and wanted to know if the new rule covered plates as well as frames. If not then I won't remove the plate in the front. If so i will continue to do so.

Thanks again for everyones input,
Jim

I took part in the discussion on license plate frmaes at the AGM. The underlying reasoning behind all of the originality rules is that the Jaguars must be presented as they might have left the factory, that is, fitted with equipment available at the time of manufacture (or in a more lenient interpretation [in particular for Driven Class entries] fitted with any part available for that model, at that time, sanctioned by Jaguar USA or Jaguar Canada through their dealers. This is what permits bonnet leapers, side rub strips, and so on).

Clearly, this general rule is incompatible with the fitting of chain link license plate frames...the decision was that license plate frames which appear in the official catalogues (that is the factory or accessory catalogues) are legitimate. But in an extension of this discussion which seemed to me a bit bizarre, it was decided that any license plate frame which promoted a Jaguar dealer, or JCNA, or in any way promoted Jaguars, would be legitimate (for the record, I opposed this decision).

This means that if you have a plate frame with two naked women depicted at the bottom with the message "we love our Jags" in between, you will receive no deduction. Good taste does not figure in this. A simple and plain chrome license plate frame contemporary with the car is not allowed unless it appears in the Jaguar accessory catalogues (and there ar some).
As they used to say, "Go figure...".

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

My question of fasteners was prompted by the fact that most new cars I have bought that I remember, at least since the mid 80's all came with a little bag of screws or bolts for attaching the license plates to the holders. I would assume many Jaguars did also.

Can anybody tell me the thought behind the license plate frame rule? Perhaps to eliminate frames with skulls, linked chains, etc? The reason I ask is that I have rather tasteful (in my opinion), simple, chromed pot metal frame, that was a typical aftermarket item in the 60's and 70's, on my E-Type. It looks period, isn't in poor taste and nicely finishes the raw edges of the plate. It is also apparently now worth a deduction. I guess I have to remove it for each concours.

Stew's suggestion regarding the license plate itself included the words "would be appropriate", and I certainly agree with him. But that's a personal, subjective opinion. Judging must be done according to the rule book and any applicable judging guide, and as nothing exists about license plates, no deduction can be taken, regardless of the opinions as to what is appropriate or not....

I'm only being pedantic about this because sometimes we need to remember that we judge to a standard, as in the rule book and judging guides, not to what we think is correct or appropriate.

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

Pat,

Thanks again I agree on both comments.

Steve, regarding your comment about the front license plate, I disagree that it must be Jaguar associated. The rule book is quite clear that the mounting bracket must be displayed on, or off the car, and the plate frame must be Jaguar associated. The Rule Book says nothing about the license plates themselves. Jim McDonald's question concerns his gated community license plate on the front of his car and whether it would receive a non-authentic deduction. Personally, I would not deduct for that plate. A "Vote For Jane Fonda" plate; however, is in poor taste and I seriously doubt that anyone smart enough to own a Jaguar would own one. :)

Pat H.
CJ NGJC

Thanks Pat, I think a vote for Jane would be an automatic disqualification.

Jim

John,
Regarding your original post regarding license plate fasteners. I understand certain model's Parts Catalogues listed fasteners (XK120 for one) however, I have not found any listing for license plate fasteners (Plate to Bracket)for Series 1, 2, 1.5, & 3 E-types. Hardware for mounting the license plate brackets (both front and rear) is listed for the E-types in their repsective Parts Catalogues, or IPLs. Some of the newer models have license plate frames listed in their accessory brochures and some of these include hardware for fastening the frame and plate to the bracket, some of these frames are gorgeous.

Regarding License Plates, in states or provinces that do not require a front license plate, the bracket can be mounted, or if not mounted it must be displayed, as all models beginning with the the E-types and subsequent came from the factory with licese plate mounting brackets. If the front bracket is mounted, but no front plate is issued, an appropriate Jaguar, Dealer, JCNA, or JCNA Affiliated Club Plate would be appropriate, following the rational of the new license plate frame rule.
Thanks,
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
'01 S-Type
and other LBC's

Pat,

It's true that the license plates themselves are not subject to judging. Given the absence of a rule regarding license plates, I would have to conclude that your "Vote for Jane Fonda" plate could not receive a deduction. Now, if it was a "Vote for Jane Fonda" license plate FRAME, it would be subject to a 1.0 point deduction. That is, unless it also promoted JCNA, a JCNA affiliate club, a Jaguar dealer, or the Jaguar marque in general, in which case it would be acceptable, although most definitely in bad taste. Hmmmmm.....

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type

Hi Jim,
The way I read the book the license plates are not judged -- only the bracket and the frame mounted on the bracket. I am not aware of any requirement for the vehicle to be licensed for street driving and would thus assume that a license plate is not required to be there at all. I can only conclude that any plate is acceptable providing it doesn't say Vote For Jane Fonda.

Pat H.

I'd like a little clarification on this new rule as well. I understand the frame rule, but what about the plate within the frame if it is not one promoting Jaguar,a club or state requjired plate? i have had both a state flag plate and a plate that shows the gated community we have a home in. Are those allowed? I've removed the state plate for the three concours I've been in so far this year.

Thanks,

Jim

John, there is no mention of fasteners in the section of the rule book that deals with the license plate frames themselves, therefore the applicable section would be Chapter V, page 2, Item 5.b. that deals with fasteners. "Judge the authenticity of all visible fasteners, including number, type, size, length, plating, finish, bolt head markings, nut style, washers, etc." Given that license plates were not issued by Jaguar, I wonder if there even is such a thing as authentic fasteners for them. I guess that it would vary by model, vintage, etc.

Clear enough for you.....? ;-)

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1969 E-Type OTS
1987 XJ6 VDP
2002 X-Type