Mark 2 Guide and tell-tales

Sorry for creating confusion. As noted, my information is from the MK 2 parts manual. For those who think it makes more since for it to have been originally installed with the "Point to the Front", I challenge you to show me factory photographs and original, unrestored cars showing it Point to the Front. I will send Pascal at least four shots of unrestored XK 140s and MK 2s with the jewels Flat to the Front. These have to be shots of unrestored cars, not "I know they were that way before I restored them" comments or shots.
Steve Kennedy
skennedyecentral.com

The problem Doug is page 67 of (for example) the 3.4 MK2 handbook E/116/9 in this case. There is a drawing (number 1446) which shows the marker in flat forward. If I supported an ammendment it would be after this drawing can be proved to be in error. If not we are just legislating the truth. If the ammendment is offered that correctness can not be determined I think I would support it but only if it addressed all models with them. 120/140/150/etc. George Camp

Doug,
I can't speak for George, but I would support such an amendment, that's essentially what I said should have happened two days ago, in my first post.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
'01 S-Type
and other LBC's

George,

As you state, the Guide does cite references throughout its body to support various points made. Regarding the tell tales, however, the _only_ citation in the Guide is that of Kennedy, which you refer to as 'a useful work but secondary'. You also state that 'without primary source information this can not be settled', and given that the Guide apparently does settle the issue _without_ primary source information, I wonder if you might support an amendment to the Guide that the correct orientation of the tell tales cannot be conclusively determined.

This is a very interesting discussion......

Doug Ingram
Concours Chair
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria
Victoria BC Canada

Gregory I do not disagree with your last post. I think the drawing is possibly incorrect but it does come from a handbook for the model. This affects more than the Mk2 as I said earlier and all I am suggesting is that we did to seek the factual answer. George would be happy I am sure to change it presented with the evidence. What we do not need is to legislate correctness. That is what causes too many problems now such as leapers on cars that never had a leaper in any market--but JCNA legislates them ok. The best the rules com. can do is point out they are incorrect but ok. I just spent a week working in the archives in the US. I can tell you the answer is not there. The answer is in the UK archives of Jaguar or in the Lucas archives. George Camp

Doug to put it buntly Steve K's work is a useful work but secondary as it relies on primary information for its body. You are correct on the lack of primary references on the cover (at least the copy I have). If you look in the body of the work you will see many references to parts and service bulletins and handbooks. As far as the acceptance of the guide with this "error" you are correct. If a guide is to be accepted it has to be presented at the AGM and voted on. If there is too much discussion or disagreement it will be tabled and not be approved. I do not know if this was George's rational but I was present when it was presented and this very topic came up. What I hope for is primary source material on this and a few more issues. If we accept what is out there and do not continue to search then we will never know for sure. This topic is valid but no mater which version is finally discovered to be true either by fact or legislation it is easily corrected. I do wish George would list all of his sources on the cover as they are primary for the most part. George Camp

George:
As I have said repeatedly, the Mark 2 Guide is an excellent piece of work, and George Jones is to be congratulated on it.
But the Guide as approved lacks any relevance to cars produced for the Canadian market because it simply does not mention them (despie the fact that these cars are judged in JCNA concours). And with regard to the issue of the tell-tales, there is a major problem. The problem is precisely that a decision has been made regarding the orienting of the tell-tales based on inconclusive (and some might thing, wrong) evidence. The sources used are not "primary"; they are rather what you have called "secondary", and I have provided multiple "secondary" sources which show the flat face towards the driver. The drawing used as a single "primary" source is not clearly a drawing made for the Mark 2 as it shows a nascelle separate from the body, not fared-in original. Here, as elsewhere, Jaguar may have used an earlier drawing and simply added the tell-tale. In any case, being a drawing and not a photograph, it is the product of an artist who may or may not have interpreted the fitment correctly. (My comments regarding other items on the Canadian cars were indeed supported by direct reference to "primary source" material: the Parts Catalogue. No need to urge me to do so; it has already been done. The question now is whether this "primary source" material will be accepted, and if not, why not?).
The decision made in the Guide is, in fact, the problem. It will cause some cars which are correctly fitted to be labelled as "non-authentic" in this regard. My point is that in the absence of clear factory directives regarding fitment, and in the presence of much evidence that cars were indeed fitted at the factory with the flat face towards the driver, it is simply wrong to make a ruling to the contrary. My suggestion is that this item be altered in the Guide to state that there is, as yet, no clear answer, and that therefore this is not a deductible item.
Leaving the Guide as it is on this point creates a problem. I am attempting to suggest a solution which will not unfairly penalise an entrant.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

George,

I wonder if you might clarify what you refer to as 'primary source information'. Surely the parts manual would be considered as such, and indeed it is cited as a reference source for the Guide. The other reference sources listed in the Guide would appear to fit the description of what you refer to as 'secondary'. Further, the Guide accepts Kennedy's conclusions regarding the tell tales, who lists his references (page 115), all of which would also appear to be 'secondary'. I point this out because the references cited by both Kennedy and the Guide are of the same type as those cited by Andrachuk.

Doug Ingram
Concours Chair
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria
Victoria BC Canada

Some folks have social outings that do not allow for nano second responses. When George did his guide we had several conversations on this point. I even brought it up at the AGM when it was presented with several folks mentioned in attendance. Some spring but even coppied the page out of the handbook mentioned and presented it to me (as though I had never seen it before). I happen to agree with you BUT as I told you before without primary source information this can not be settled as it affects more than MK2. All of the sources you have cited are secondary or in some cases just rumor. What is needed to solve this is the eng. drawings for the part and the build instructions which to date have not been found. I suspect that the answer can be found at the Lucas archives in Beaulieu. While I once again agree that the flat side should go to the driver so they work the subject will not be solved simply by changing Georges guide. He has done a very good job on it and used primary sources throughout its pages. It is not his job in my opinion to correct this long standing issue and by simply changing his guide he in fact will only be adding to the problem. I also assume that the other issues on the non US cars will be comming up and I urge you once more to prsent the evidence with primary citations so they can be checked and corrected promptly. We are not going back to the period when someones memory is proof. George Camp

This issue of the medallions has been argued about for years but rarely have I seen such in depth discussion and I feel compelled to at least put in my "penny's worth". In 1961/62 while serving in the British army in Germany I accompanied a good a friend to meet his parents who were touring Europe in their new car. It was a mark II in Gold with a red interior. I was 19 at the time and never having owned a car was fascinated by the beauty and sophistication of the car, I will carry the scene in my mind forever, (a number of years ago I wrote a story about this encounter which was published widely by Jaguar clubs). Two particular items struck me as particularly interesting, one was the combined handbrake/brake fluid level warning light, the other was the medallions (tell tales) for the side lights. the owner explained to me how useful they were -in those days most people only drove on side lights in European cities at night- and how they were "designed to give clear indication to the driver". They were fitted with the flat face toward the rear. A number of years later while working at Browns Lane I remember a discussion about these and other "anomolies" and how, for a lark, some of them were fitted backwards! In any event it seemed to me that in order to function as intended they had to be fitted flat to the rear. I have heard that some people thought they looked better positioned the same way as the spears on the headlamps nacelle! on the XK's. Rolls Royce used a similiar nedallion on the Cloud/S series cars which had the larger face to the rear and of course cadillac have used them in many forms on their cars, once again with the flat/larger face to the rear. (look at how much you can get for a penny! Jaguar affectionado and etc.

I have just finished checking some other books that I have on MkIIÔÇÖs the results are as follows.

Jaguars MkII Schiffer Automotive Series. Ever single picture that these Tells tales can be clearly seen show them to be oriented with the flat face towards the driver. The only exception is the original Jaguar mock up where they are white and are shown with the sloped side towards the driver.

Jaguar MkI and Mk 2 by James Taylor. As with the previous book all the pictures show the flat side towards the driver for all MkII, 240 and 340.

Jaguar MkI and MkII The complete Companion by Nigel Thorley does show a gold plated MkII specially prepared for the New York Motor show that has them with the sloped side towards the driver.

The Original Jaguar MkI/MkII the restorers guide to MkI, MkII, 240/340 and Daimler V-8. by Nigel Thorley. In here he specifically states on page 44 and I quote directly. Very early 1959 markII featured white plastic side light tell tales (later changed to red) These tell tales slope the wrong way and should be reversed. (The picture shows them with the flat side facing forward). In addition every single picture in this book of MkIIÔÇÖs shows the tell tales in the same position and that is with the flat side towards the driver.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6 VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic.

Edited on 2005-12-03 18:55:23

Curiously. In Steve KennedyÔÇÖs Book 'Jaguar the classic marque" He illustrates a clipping from the service manual showing the flat side forward for the Mk II and rearward for the 240 and 340 but all the photographs of the MkII's on Pages 102/104/105 and 107 show them fitted flat side towards the driver. (I am positive that they were that way on all my Fathers cars as well and they all came directly from the factory to him.)

This subject is equally important to me because shortly I will be finishing my restoration on my Mk 11.

Bob.

92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III Xj6 VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Well, faced with a resounding near-silence on the issue of Mark 2 tell-tales, I am emboldened to go further regarding other Mark 2, and general, issues. But first, one additional bit of evidence for the fitting of the tell-tales, not given in my previous posting: Paul Skilleter in his "Jaguar Mark 2 Saloons", page 41, photo 12, shows a close-up of a tell-tale with the flat side facing the driver. The caption reads verbatim: "Sidelights on the Mk 2 were contained in nascelles on the top of the wings; red plastic tell-tales or "medallions" informed driver (sic) whether the bulb was working, and - to settle arguments - were fitted THIS (sic) way round!". As Skilleter is one of the sources cited by Kennedy (who in turn is used as the source for the Mark 2 Guide decision on these items), I am at a loss to explain how a definite and opposite conclusion regarding placement was made.

The object here is not to cause controversy, to upset anyone, to step on toes, or to do anything other than to arrive at the truth regarding placement of these items. I believe that I have provided sufficient evidence to suggest that the present statement in the Guide should be softened. It may well be that the factory placement was random; but at the very least we have to say that the issue cannot be decided definitively one way or the other and that therefore the placement of the tell-tales should not be a deductible item. Again, I would appreciate hearing a response from those most concerned: George Jones, author of the (very well written) Mark 2 Judging Guide, and George Camp, and Dick Cavicke among others. Over to you, gentlemen.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Dear Dr. Andrachuck
Are you talking about those tiny plastic red thingyÔÇÖs that go on top of the little lights at the top-front of the wings? If so, it seems the only practical solution is to mount one one-way and the other the other-way. That way, one would be wrong all of the time and the other would be right all of the time. Many people do very well being half right some of the time, and being half right all of the time would be an improvement in many cases.

On a serious note, your statement is (as usual) very well researched and documented; I just canÔÇÖt argue against your argument; hence my silence. The lesson to be learned is that some of the things that we try to tie down in the JudgesÔÇÖ Guides just canÔÇÖt positively be tied down. Bob Stevenson acknowledged this point in his Series 1 E-type JudgesÔÇÖ Guide and I followed his lead in the Series 2 E-type JudgesÔÇÖ Guide; we both asked for conformation on those things where we had even a tiny tad of doubt. The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with saying, ÔÇ£I donÔÇÖt knowÔÇØ. IÔÇÖm convinced that some things will never be known for certain, and some of the things that we know now, may be lost for the next generation. This is why the JudgeÔÇÖs Guides are so important, especially on the older models where I fear a lot has already been lost. For instance, no one seems to know exactly where the air cleaner decals go on the XK 150s.
Thanks,
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
'01 S-Type
and other LBC's

No comments from anyone else? Dick Cavicke? George Jones? George Camp? Stew Cleave?
I should perhaps mention that the point being made here (and additional informational on differences between US and Canadian-market Mark 2 cars) was given to the author when the guide was in its preliminary form. I would really appreciate an informed discussion of these matters.

Gregory Andrachuk,
Chief Judge, JCCV
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

I'd like to correct an error I made in my first message, and to apologise to George Jones for quoting from his preliminary rather than his final version of the Mark II Judging Guide, which has subsequently been corrected. I quoted Mr Jones as stating that *all* the Mark 2, 240 and 340 cars had the tapered portion of the tell-tale towards the driver, based on Kennedy's conclusions. This statement was erroneous, but it was corrected by the author to reflect accurately Steve Kennedy's (debatable) conclusion that only the 240 and 340 cars had the flat portion towards the driver, the Mark 2 having the flat portion facing forwards. This does not affect my argument in any substantive way.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Well researched and stated, Gregory. Given the conflicting evidence on this issue, it seems to me that the reasonable and fair resolve for our Concours rules is to state that the correct orientation of the tell tales cannot be conclusively determined, and no deduction will be made regarding this issue.

Doug Ingram
Concours Chair
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria
Victoria BC Canada