Point spread ?

Well,I can certainly understand where you are coming from, because I have spent 3 seasons and probably a couple of thousand dollars and countless hours attempting to better my car. I have seen a progression in scoring but there is still too much inconsistency right now.

However, overall, the car has placed where it belongs. Its been second in the Southwest region two years in a row and has an equal number of first and second place finishes over the past 3 years. It placed 4th nationally last year. I am shooting for a podium finish this year in Driven or a first regional before I tackle the engine and move it to Championship.

Back on track, I think the reason most of the scores are so close together and so far up on the higher end is because in general the folks who come to the shows , bring top cars. The wrecks and works in progress are all in display. Some of the shows I go to , honestly all the cars in class are near perfect. Theres just not going to be a whole lot of variation from year to year also, for example, my car is driven 3500 miles a year, is garaged 24/7 and babied. I wouldn't expect it to dive a whole lot from show to show. I know atfer 3 seasons and a dozen shows about where the car should be scoring.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Hi Daniel

First, I agree that there is no need for a scoring "cap". I'm not sure about the 95 point sentiment thing you are mentioning as I don't beleive I suggested anything like that but perhaps you are referring to another aspect of the system that has been discussed elsewhere.

I have looked at all the indvidual scores. I saw a few 70-somethings (cars awaiting restoration, I presume) and a smattering of 96-thru-98 somethings, and then a huge number of 99-plus.

My contention was simply that, amoung all those 99-plus cars, there was probably more of a "spread" in their condition than the scoring would suggest. I realize now that there were some things I hadn't conisidered.

If you feel motivated to continually improve your car then, in the biggest and most important sense, the concours system is 100% sucessful. Improving my car over the years and having my hard work noticed by the judges and evidenced by the higher scores has been most gratifying. (I'll admit, though, that my proudest moment had nothing to do with numeric scores. It was when our club's chief judge presented me with the "Most Improved" trophy.........)

Me? I'm "de-motivated" right now because I'm at the point where spending thousands of dollars (and a few hundred man-hours) would increase my 99.4xx or 99.5xx to perhaps 99.9xx so its hardly worthwhile in my mind... and perhaps also serves to help illustrate my original point . Part of this is obviously *my* mental block in accepting that a 99.9xx car is about twice as nice as a 99.4xx car ! Im learning, though.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

I dont know that I totally agree Doug, if you look at individual concours scores instead of just the regional and national leaderboard, I think you will see a wide variety of score levels.

I have to admit I have seen just the opposite problem when it comes to scores. Identically prepared car, shown in consecutive shows getting a broad range of scores. The sentiment that we should be happy when a champion car scores 95 points is totally lost when every judge, every concours does not operate on the same page, which is what it is now.

Now I agree that most of the time the placement of cars is correct and consistent. I have been beaten on several occasions by cars which were superior. I didnt feel bad at all, I felt motivated to make my car better for next time. On one occasion I lost to a car which was far inferior and belonged to a host club officer, but thats another story. However, the fact that cars score consistently at a given show does not help with the fact that we hold a national ( USA and Canada okay, I dont need a whole its not National argument now) competition, and our focus has to be on national consistency.

I am a rookie judge this year and I judged a couple of cars , I thought fairly, and was immediately told I was too harsh by experienced concours folks. Yet at other shows I KNOW I would have been considered too soft.

But I also disagree that there needs to be some kind of unwritten unofficial score cap that the best cars reach 95 points and no more. There is such a thing as a 100 point car, or what are those of us who spend the money every season working towards?

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

George: In response to the question regarding judging guides, I am currently preparing the Series III XJ guide. It will take into account both the US and Canadian model XJ, both 6 cylinder and V12, in all its variants. I hope to have it reday to submit to the AGM next spring.
Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Pascal you are dead on. We will know we have improved when we see a national champion with a 95 or so. Problem is that some folks take a lower score as a comment on them personally. I was the CJ at one show and my XJ-S team turned in a 60. The owner was outraged and I agreed to go see his car. As few lamps or devices worked and the car(he had worked on it but in the wrong direction) the score was perhaps inflated. He raised hell for a few weeks and then decided to correct his car. He did and it was very respectable. He was the exception not the norm. George Camp

Thank you Stew for stating your answer as you did. There is a lot of Bob's observation at play but you covered the technical aspect well. As to Pascal's numbers I knew they were high but not that high. Stew stated the judging guidance properly. Cars are not judged against each other but to standard. The sooner we have standards for all cars the better off we will be. There are a lot of guides to be written and veted---any volunteers? George Camp

Thanks to all who have replied. I have some information and perspectives now that I hadn't even considered before.

Stew, I agree that this is not a "problem" but the subject has been on my mind for so long now that I felt I had to bring it up. Your insight is very helpful to me.

Bob, I am aware of the "everyone goes home happy" concept as it has been bandied about on these forums before. And, to a certain degree, I have no problem with that.....providing that those with superior cars are not inadvertantly slighted or discouraged by a too favorable scoring of a clearly inferior car.

Gregory: First thanks for the kind words. And, yes, I sometimes wonder if more points shouldn't be taken. Personally, I don't recall ever having been "docked" for something that wasn't 100% justified....on my own car. I have questioned some deductions on superior cars, though. And this goes back to Bob's remark about the better cars being judged more firmly.

I guess, perhaps, I'm really saying that my own car should be judged more firmly.... and I wouldn't have a problem with that. I would rather get a honestly deserved "95" than a questionably earned "99.xxx".

Tempering that is the well known tendency for a person to be harder on his own car than he would be on others.....

Again, I brought this matter up not as a complaint but as a question...and have rec'd some good answers

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Doug,
What a question, I can see me writing 10 pages to answer the question properly; and I cherish brevity. Why canÆt you ask things like this in our rainy season when we in the Northwest have little to occupy our time? Let me try to organize a short answer; IMHO:

1. First, I do not see your observation as a problem.

2. It must be understood that the JCNA Scoring System is a measuring system and like all measuring systems, the problems arise when doing conversions: Do not try to compare JCNA scores with other car club scores as it is a futile endeavor; like comparing apples to oranges or perhaps passion fruit to lemons.

3. With that said, there is a big difference between a JCNA 99.5 point car and a JCNA 99.6 point car. Part of this is because all deductions are subtracted from 1000 points and then divided by 10 for Champion Division or divided by 100 for Driven and Special Divisions.

4. As George Camp once stated, in JCNA, judges are taught to judge to a standard and the Standard with few exceptions is, ôAs the Jaguar left the Factoryö. This is much like AKC Dog Show Judging, the standard is known by the judges and the question simply becomes how close the dog is to the standard. In JCNA Concours we are not judging Jaguars side by side, we are judging Jaguars to a Standard to find the best Jaguars in North America.

5. When the Standard becomes better understood by Entrants and Judges alike; theoretically the scores should get better and better each year, as the Standard is fixed; it does not change from year to year. One of the biggest problems in the past has been that the Standard, especially as it deals with authenticity, was not well known in some JCNA Concours Competition Classes. JudgesÆ Guides have been a great help in reducing this system deficiency, as well as the improvements in JudgesÆ Training that went into effect two years ago.

6. Similarly, many have asked for a Condition and Cleanliness Guide so that judging across North America becomes more consistent. Judging Consistency is still a systemic problem. I believe a JCNA Condition and Cleanliness Guide, which I understand is being written, will solve one of the last major systemic problems in the JCNA Concours Scoring System.

7. In the Northwest, I have been encouraging all judges to volunteer as Guest Judges at as many JCNA Concours as possible. I sense this exchange of judges has had an influence on judging consistency in our region and hope that this system can be expanded inter-regionally.

8. To mention another reason for your observations: Very few JCNA Concours Entrants compete with cars that are less than competitive, the JCNA Concours Program attracts only best. JCNA Concours ôDisplay Onlyö provisions and other less competitive events like All British Field MeetÆs (ABFMÆs) attract a lot of these lesser cars.

Thanks,
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

Preamble: I have been competing for quite a few years, with a variety of cars. I have had the good fortune to do so in the very pleasant company of Doug Dwyer on many, many occasions. Doug's car (Series III xj6) is a "daily driver", yes, but the best "driver" I have ever examined. It is simply a beautiful machine, and deserving of the scores it has received, in relative terms. (In fact, I have often thought that Doug's scores should have ben higher than they were.)
In this, I support what Bob Higgs has just said: the relative placings of cars in the concours I have attended both in Canada and the US, have almost without exception reflected the relative quality of the cars, regardless of the specific points assigned to them. As an example, two weeks ago Doug's car was in competition in class C12 with a former North American C12 champion car, and with a freshly (and beautifully) restored car. The relative award placings: the NA champion car first, the newly-restored car second, separated by just 4/1000, and in third place, Doug's car. Any experienced judge would have placed the cars this way. So the issue is not the placings, but the specific scores, and in this regard, I do agree with Doug. It is rare indeed to see a car rating below 98 points; on the other hand, the only scores we actually hear about are the first, second and third place scores. Cars beyond the top three may well have significantly lower scores.
The reasons for the narrow spread in the top three placings? Over the years I have been campaigning my cars, I have observed the quality of the cars in C12 improve *dramatically*, and the attention to detail on the cars shown nowadays was not imaginable for this class 10 years ago. The cars are simply better, and better prepared, and the owners are better informed on issues of originality and condition. Further, the cars in championship classes seem to be *expected* to be close to perfect so that "lesser" cars are not campaigned in this class.
That said, Doug's unspoken comment is that perhaps we are not deducting enough for the faults found. It is as if the only students taking the exams were A+ students.
Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Geroge, i think your view on this woudl be interesting as a JCRC member... please don't take it off forum...

i have to agree... in fact, JCNA scores are often ridiculed in some magazines, esp. Sports Car Market poking fun at the always high JCNA scores.

In fact the rules are completly out of sync with resutls ... 90pts minimum for 1st, 80 for 2nd and 70 for 3rd.

out of 3500 Championship division entries since 2001, only ONE is below 70... 7 between 70 and 80, 35 between 80 and 90, and about 120 between 90 and 95

that's 95% of championship entries scoring above 95pts, and 71% receiving scores in the 99pts range.

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe

Doug I think it has a lot to do with the "lets let everybody go home happy syndrome" and you cannot blame the clubs for that. They want competitors to return the following year.
It has also been my experience that the more I have improved my car the more critical the judges have become with it. While at the same time the lessor prepared cars tend to get a far more lenient critique from them.

Believe it or not Doug, I sit firmly on the fence on this one. You once said something to me about over a series of shows, everything evens out and the best car always rises to the top. If that is the case, is it so bad that by being lenient to the lessor prepared cars you are encouraging the owners to return the following year. I know some guys where this has been a positive experience for them and has given them the motivation to attempt to get their cars better prepared for next year. I also know other guys that have received properly deserved low scores and have never returned.

In some ways I think this is far better for everyone if we attempt to give positive encouragement to participants rather than to discourage them with low scores and perhaps chase them away.

Heck I cannot believe I just wrote that..:)

Bob.

92 Ser III V-12 VDP #39 Canadian limited edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6 VDP

Why discuss it off-forum? There are others of us interested in the answer to this question.

David
1959 Mk1

Doug you are kidding right? Lets have this conversation off the forum. I have been involved for 30+ years and think I can explain it. George Camp

Doug you are kidding right? Lets have this conversation off the forum. I have been involved for 30+ years and think I can explain it. George Camp