Series III V12's and Limited Edition Jaguars

>>>and Bob, the substitute is a Euro-Ford mirror control, not GM

Thanks Gregory. I knew it to see it but apparently was wrong with its origin.

Bob.

92 Ser III V-12 VDP Canadian Limited Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Sovereign
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP

Gentlemen: I have been away from home for several weeks, but I have a few comments at this point. I will be preparing a Series III Authenticity Guide to aid judges, but in the meantime: Bob Higgs is correct on many points. The Canadian and US Series III cars have always had differences, some minor, some considerable, such as the cold weather package, not documented, but fitted - all V12 cars, for example should have the in-hose pre-heater for the coolant and the electrical wire that goes with it. This should form part of the tool kit OR be visible in the engine compartment near the upper left hand rad hose (the heater was fitted in a 2 segment lower rad hose; US XJS V12 cars had a single hose with no heater).
The last 100 (actually, 101 as there is at least one unnumbered, "pre-release" 92 specification car which was registered as a 91) have significant anomalies precisely for the reasons Bob stated: Jaguar ran out of Series III parts, both the general parts such as the mirror controls (and Bob, the substitute is a Euro-Ford mirror control, not GM), floor mats and even it seems the black/gold grille badges, as well as other items. So these very last cars require a very careful handling in matters of authenticity; I have owned 4 of them and examined many others. I will deal with them in the Authenticity guide. Regarding wheels, the Canadian cars, both Sovereign and V12 Vanden Plas, could be supplied with either Kent or Pepperpot wheels according to the choice of the owner. The xj6 was supplied, as in the US, with Kent wheels. The standard factory wheel fitting varied from year to year. Both are correct in every way since both/either could be, and were, fitted as a no-cost option at the factory. The Canadian brochures for the late V12 Vanden Plas show both wheels. Tires: Bob is correct again: the sticker in the mirror compartment (and every single Series III cars has this sticker) has always shown both the 205 and the 215 as correct fittings since the 215 size was optional where it was not factory fitted. Even my 1982 xj6 had this sticker. The V12 cars always came with the 215 size, and for the record, the tires were narrow band whitewalls until the dreaded Pirelli P5 was supplied in 1982). Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Edited on 2005-04-12 11:38:31

I probably shouldn't chime in here since I don'thave a Series III, but I know some of the folks posting. No matter what you are into, if it's going to be judged, someone, somewhere will tick you off. Judging by it's very nature is extremely subjective, and there are a lot of "armchair" experts out there. Sometimes they truly know what they are talking about, sometimes they have no clue but think they do. It's just the luck of the draw.

This may be blasphemous to many, and I'm pretty sure I spelled blasphemous wrong, but folks, let's have some perspective here. The stakes are kinda low in the big picture. Sure, we all like to win things and get notariety, but sometimes it sounds like folks are fighting over a million dollar prize or something. We're fighting over pewter and plaques and a picture in a Journal only we enthusiasts get anyway.

I go to the concours' for the fun of it, to meet neat people, see some great cars, and learn, learn, learn. My XJS has greatly benefited from you folks, and I now pay attention to things I never would have before. I also still use it to drive to work, get groceries, ferry my kids and their friends, etc.

I get the most pleasure from showing the car and having folks come up and go, "that's really neat." Having someone at a red light or gas station call over, "I love your car," makes me feel better than any trophy. I show off my car, my trophy's are on an obscure shelf in my bedroom that only my wife and cat's see.

My car will most likely never grace the Journal's pages, but every time I show it, I still get a lot of admirers. It's about the people and the joy of owning a very special machine, at least to me. Bob, I hope you never get out of shows, you are just too much fun to be around. Heck, I went to Cleveland to hang with you, not win anything. Getting a 3rd was a surprise, and a nice little bonus, but hanging out with my buddies and winning nothing still would have made it a fun day.

Off my soapbox, you all can start throwing tomatos at me while being led to the pillory.

BTW, I see a response from a Steve Kennedy here. Kinda new to you folks here, but if you're the fellow that wrote the Classic Marque book, well, it's my bible! Fantastic job! All I own is an XJS but being newsletter editor for my local club, I needed to bone up on the other types, and your excellect work is a Godsend! If you're a different guy, well, er, nice to meet you. Tom Kipp
89 XJ-S Coupe

I did read the rules, Bob :-) They don't negate what I wrote.

My point, though, is that you are considering dropping out of concours because of what *might* happen. You just said that all the judges but one accepted your explanation of the unique features of your car, and in the one exception you rec'd a deduction for only one item. I think this actually lends credence to my own remarks about what must go through a judge's mind before he brings up a non-authenticity issue.

As for bad judging, well, that's a risk you'd take even if you had an ordinary Jaguar.

So, IMHO, don't take the "I might as well not even bother showing my cars" attitude. Hang in there, be part of the action, and maybe even break some new ground ! To me your situation sounds like a good challenge, not a reason to drop out.

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Thanks for the offer Steve but I have full selection already. I was given access to Jaguar Canada's Library and now have a full and complete set of all what they had.

My comments however were solely in regards to the last 100 Limited edition Daimler double six cars that were built at the Daimler plant in 1991/1992 and shipped to Canada badged as Jaguars. Parts were scounged up from all over the factory in order to build these cars and they came with an assorted arrangement of parts. For example both my cars, #39 and #90 came with Jaguar mats while Gregory's #92 came with Daimler mats. My #39 came with a Jaguar switch to control the mirrors while my #90 has a GM style switch fitted. My #39 has a release button for the boot lid, my #90 and GregoryÆs #92 does not have this feature, guess they ran completely out of these buttons.

Both my cars came with Kents however one of the wheels has been modified by what looks like a visit to Jaguars development shop. It has the appearance that attempts were being made to experiment with allowing increased brake venting. I have not changed it because that is the way the car came and I have made every attempt to keep this car bone stock original.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

Bob,
Please contact me off line and I will send you photocopies of Canadian Series III XJ brochures that show both the Pepperpot and Kent wheels on the V12 Series III XJ Vanden Plas Saloon.
Steve Kennedy
skennedyecentral.com
Denver

Doug. I was just referring to the change in rules that Dick Cavicke bought to my attention. They are very precisely worded and cover nearly everything. They are worth a read.

Last year I was forced to explain the different points on my car at nearly every American show I went to. All but one the judges accepted what I told them to be true. However at the other I did receive a deduction for an item that was different on my car to what the judge was used to seeing. The judging was so bad at that show I did not think it worth arguing about so I just let it slide. You have to admit that Gregory has a unique advantage over the rest of us when showing a car. Most of the people involved in concours know him well and respect his knowledge. Who in their right mind would disagree with him anyway? I am not however in that enviable position. Under these new rules I could legitimately be penalized for everything from my wheels to the seats to the headlight wipers to the steering wheel and there is absolutely no way I could substantiate the authenticity of any of it unless I had Gregory standing by my side at the time.

For a typical example. Gregory has pepperpot wheels on his 92 V-12 car and I have Kents. Under these new rules If I was judging Gregory's car I could easily deduct for his peperpots claiming the all the cars were originally built with kents. The onus is now on him to prove to me that I am wrong. He on the other hand could do the same with my Kents. Neither of us could show documentation proving either was right or wrong, there just isn't any in exsistance. (BTW I am safe for now because Gregory will not be able to chime in until the 30 April). In actual fact I do believe that all these cars were built with Kents and I know he is equally convinced that most came with Pepperpots.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

Edited on 2005-04-12 1:15:09

I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves here.

The way I see it, several things must happen before such details (such as the unique features of the last 100 V12 Ser III Cars) even become a point of contention:

First, the judge would have to actually notice the detail differences.

Second, he must perceive them as being non-authentic.

Third, he must feel strongly enough about his perception to confront the contestant.

Fourth, he must be unwilling to accept the entrant's explanation of the matter and demand proof in writing, published by Jaguar.

Not being a judge myself I make no claim to expertise on the matter. However, my observations over the years are that judges will seldom bring up an authenticity issue unless they feel VERY confident that they are correct in calling something "non-authentic."

I hope Gregory Andrachuk will chime in here. However, I have watched his V12 Ser III cars (including his last edition model) being judged many times....and I just don't recall that there were ever any significant authenticity issues regarding the unique features of those cars. In fact, the *only* instance I can think of was with respect to *one* hose clamp....which was apparently unique to the way V12 saloons were assembled.

So, Bob, don't be so ready to disqualify yourself from the 2006 events !

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

As far as my car is concerned it will be impossible, as it will be for everybody else that owns one including the gentleman you make mention of further in your posting. He also owns one that just happens to be a lot nicer than mine and deservedly earned the top spot in the Championship class of North American in 2004. I count him as being one of my really good friends.

I guess as a result of those rule changes that take place next year this will be the last year I get show my car. You can check with Gregory but I donÆt know of a single book that makes mention of the Canadian winter package and certainly one that explains our cars and we have not even touched on the Sovereign model. Of course it would now seem to make more sense to split the concours into separate Canadian and an American concours and score them independently of each other. I think if I ever get round to showing my Sovereign I would put it straight into the modified class and do away with the hassle of trying to explain the differences, either that or quit showing altogether. What a mess this is all going to be. Judges not knowing the cars and entrants not being able to substantiate the features. Jaguar was never the best company for detailing their changes which makes it all terribly worse.

I just checked the class classification page and the cars are correctly listed there. However I was referring to the printed entry forms that entrants are required to fill out at shows. On there, at least the ones I saw last year, it specifies the class as being for XJ12's.

Bob.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry