Judging Guides and Certification

Daniel,

Although the JCNA has no current Authenticity Chair for its committee, I have been substituting, and actively looking for those interested in producing guides.

The most recent success, the MK-2 Judging Authenticity Guide produced by George Jones, will be posted on jcna.com in the next few days. George has done an excellent job, and will be using it in conducting a MK-2 seminar at the 2005 AGM in Orlando.

When approved, it will join Bob Stevenson's Ser I E type and Stew Cleave's Ser II E type guides as JCNA authorized source material for resto and judging. All these guides are works in process, with additions and/or changes made when new info becomes available.

The JCNA would be happy to have you do a guide for C13 cars, using the format established by the Stevenson guide. When completed, it would become the property of the JCNA, just as with the Ser I & II guides.

So, please do begin work! Contact me or any of the others having done guides, with any further questions you might have, and keep informed of your progress.

Gary Hagopian

He has already reached me, and David and several others. Several of us have agreed to start working on a guide. I believe it is going to be difficult to put together, as we have a class that encompasses something like 10 different engines, both V12 and 6 cyl, four significantly different body styles, half a dozen significantly different interiors.... ay yi yi.... I think we will end up having to break it down into sections. At any rate, I am game to tackle XJ12s from 93 to 96 and we will see how much assistance we can get from owners of cars in the other years and models.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Daniel
Dick Cavicke, Chairman of the JCRC has been acting as the clearing house for the Judge's Guides. He can be reached by clicking on his name in the lower right corner of the Concour Page of this website.
Thanks,
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
\'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC\'s

You know what would be a good idea, is for a panel of XJ40 people, folks who have owned their cars a long time, folks who know the model variants, who have competed in Concours before, to collaborate on the creation of model guides for the classes which currently do not have one.

I see that David and I are willing to work on D07,C13 perhaps we can convince a few more folks to join the panel, it would be nice to have consulting members who own all the rare variants, such as Majestic and XJ12, and all model years if possible , since there are some big differences. The early XJ40s through 89s need to be represented, 90s-92s and 93 and 94s as well and the X300s and XJRs from 95 to 97.

In the meantime, whichever JCNA committe is responsible for drafting judging guides, please contact us directly and we will endeavor to assist in any manner possible.

Daniel
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Hi Daniel & List. I would also like to contribute to a judge's guide for D7 and C13. I have very intimate knowledge of XJ40's. Re-built a couple and detailed several more for friends and customers. We have shown in C13 thirty two times with one and three times in D7 with another. I have many pictures and originality sources, parts numbers and so on and so forth.
David Nichols

as mentioned in previous posts, judge certification is soon going to be tracked on line which is a good step.

i've been thinking about some sort of on line training here on the JCNA website. either in a instructional manner, similar to the first judging video Gary Hagopian put together, or in a test format.

high resolution images can show a lot of details, enough to be very useful for training purpose. 3 or 4 images could easily cover an etype engine bay and reveal almost all details... it could be of a "perfect" car to show what is correct or of the average concours entrants with multiple issues. could propose a list of like 20 possbile deducts (some correct some not) and have the viewer click those he thinks are correct. then compare. this wouldn't be hard to setup and be very helpful in training judges on specific model. even if it's not used in the certification process, it woudl be a great training tool.

Pascal Gademer

I do not know if JCNA has the resources, but has on-line training of judges been considered.

Regards, John

>>>>>JOCO\'s Judging School will be held at the Portland Brewery, at 12:00 noon, on the last Sunday of April, right after the TMG Club\'s Autojumble at Montgomery Park, in Portland, Oregon. It has been held there for the last several years and will be held there in the future until something inforseen happens to change it. As CJ for JOCO I have our Judging Schedule for our June Concours (English Elegance) posted on our web page in January for all to see who\'s judging whatclass and when.

Steve. This example of yours just goes to prove that it is not impossible to do. That a show can be organized ahead of time and that well informed experienced judges can be recruited and kept up to date. I congratulate you on your efforts and lets hope that this year all the other clubs that donÆt already do it, follow your example. All it takes is a Chief Judge with the right motivation. I hope you are rewarded for your efforts with a really good turn out.

Bob.

92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry
Unofficial NC Regional high point
Class D06 2004. 9.9965

Bob,
JOCO's Judging School will be held at the Portland Brewery, at 12:00 noon, on the last Sunday of April, right after the TMG Club's Autojumble at Montgomery Park, in Portland, Oregon. It has been held there for the last several years and will be held there in the future until something inforseen happens to change it. As CJ for JOCO I have our Judging Schedule for our June Concours (English Elegance) posted on our web page in January for all to see who's judging what class and when. It's my understaning that Pascal has setup a system to post judges credentials, with date of last school with each judge's history as a part of the online scoring system. I too have experienced judges that don't know my car from a toilet seat and I'm doing everything I can to see that that doesn't happen at English Elegance. I'm also very proud of the JOCO Judges who have been place in my charge, and their outstanding commitment to the JCNA Concours Judging Program.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
'02 S-Type and other LBC's

Bob,
JOCO's Judging School will be held at the Portland Brewery, at 12:00 noon, on the last Sunday of April, right after the TMG Club's Autojumble at Montgomery Park, in Portland, Oregon. It has been held there for the last several years and will be held there in the future until something inforseen happens to change it. As CJ for JOCO I have our Judging Schedule for our June Concours (English Elegance) posted on our web page in January for all to see who's judging what class and when. It's my understaning that Pascal has setup a system to post judges credentials, with date of last school with each judge's history as a part of the online scoring system. I too have experienced judges that don't know my car from a toilet seat and I'm doing everything I can to see that that doesn't happen at English Elegance. I'm also very proud of the JOCO Judges who have been place in my charge, and their outstanding commitment to the JCNA Concours Judging Program.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
'02 S-Type and other LBC's

>>>>>The only means by which \"JCNA\"" would become aware of a club or individual\'s failure to follow the concours rules is for an Entrant or an observer to report

Mr. Higgs,
You have directed your question to me but I'm not qualified to answer everything you have asked. The JCNA rules have been promulgated with the expectation that, at a minimum, the clubs and their officers will observe them under an honor system.

Entrants deserve a high level of Judging integrity and as high a level of Judging competence as may result from a sincere and dedicated Judge training program.

The only means by which "JCNA" would become aware of a club or individual's failure to follow the concours rules is for an Entrant or an observer to report the rule infractions via the protest process. If a formal protest is not filed or there is no complaint communicated directly to the Board of Directors, there are no secondary ways for "JCNA" to learn of such violations.

JCRC has not had the time or the inclination to enumerate penalties or restrictions for clubs, Entrants or Judges suspected of non-compliance with the published rules. Penalizing individuals or organizations must usually be based on strong and essentially irrefutable evidence of willful contravention of the rules. If you feel strongly about what you have been observing and the consequences thereof, you might consider recommending an expanded process for reporting violations, a range of punishments, and how to administer them. It would be well to have the JCNA General Counsel review your proposal.

Thanks for your interest and participation,
Dick Cavicke
Chair, JCRC

Great idea!

the AGM, and the JCC, are the only JCNA events with members from all over north america... it's the best time to have judging seminars. I hope that somethign similar can be done at the 2005 JCC in sept.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

I would like to point out some good news here. The AGM Committee is planning to offer two concours judging seminars next April in Orlando. We feel that the JCNA Annual General Meeting is a perfect opportunity to provide members with educational seminars designed to bolster the consistency of judging.

Friday's seminars:
"Judging the MK-2" by JCRC with new Guidelines and DVD
"Troubleshooting the XKE" by Coventry West

Saturday's seminars:
"Chief Judge Training" by JCRC
"JCNA Slalom & HPDE"

It is our hope that members from all clubs attend the seminars, and share the knowledge with their club. Each step is a positive one.

Ginger Corda
AGM Co-Chair

Mr Cavicke. If it is known to JCNA that a club is not complying with the guidelines as drawn up by JCNA donÆt continue to sanction their events until they agree to comply with the rules and regulations. I believe it is safe to say that members who prepare their cars and attend these concours assume the sanctioning process assures them that a level of competence is in place. To allow less is cheating the members and makes a mockery of the sanctioning process. Glad to hear about all the new proposals that are in process. Lets hope they all work out for the betterment of this rather expensive activity.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry
NC Regional high point D06 2004. 9.9965

Dear Concours Forum correspondents,
Pascal Gademer and Harry Parkinson have recently given generous and accurate statements regarding some of the things going on within JCNA, and at the local level, to correct many of the problems personally experienced and/or witnessed by concours Entrants.

For those who may not be familiar with the Judge's Concours Rules Committee (JCRC), it was authorized by the JCNA BoD a little over 2 years ago and consists of one highly experienced Chief Judge from each of the 6 JCNA Regions. Here's what we've been doing.

1. Since its authorization, JCRC has undertaken a systematic approach to the more pronounced concours shortcomings and is only part way through the wide range of anticipated improvements. We have been going through the Rule Book chapter by chapter, making it more readable and less redundant and correcting the inconsistencies and patch-worked areas as we go.

2. A top priority was to provide a more accurate description of both the qualifications and responsibilities of the Chief Judge and the process by which a person becomes a certified JCNA Concours Judge. That was followed by:
- a clean-up and expansion of the concours classes,
- limiting Champion Division to Entries that could be adequately judged for authenticity,
- specifying realistic authenticity exceptions for Driven Division,
- establishing Special Division for Entries whose authenticity could not be accurately documented,
- correcting and reformatting the Tire and Wheel Appendix (B) and
- adding Appendix C, Official Publications for Documenting Authenticity.

3. Simultaneously, the committee solicited and supported the authoring of model Judging Guides. This was done in full acknowledgement that, while many Judges could become certified and competent in complying with the Judging Rules and scoring, there would always be a lack of judging expertise and detailed knowledge of many of the individual models within the broad cross-section of Jaguars being fielded.

4. To attack these problem areas, with AGM delegate approval, pertinent parts of the Rule Book have been revised (Chapters II, III & IV, plus Appendices B & C) with the intent of fostering increased Judge professionalism and improving the accuracy of the information being presented. Series 1 and Series 2 E-type Judging Guides were approved (and are available for free downloading) to bring greater standardization and accuracy in judging those models.

5. Judging Guides for SS and Pre-war Jaguars, XK120, XK140, Series 3 E-type and MK2 cars are being worked on. The guide authors are being encouraged to use high quality photos to illustrate certain features and ultimately to consider DVD versions. These same authors welcome input and assistance from experienced Judges and owners. All guides will be posted for comment prior to their being presented for AGM approval.

6. With the documented wide variations in deductions, for seemingly the same condition and cleanliness discrepancies, an attempt is being made to alleviate that problem by producing a Condition and Cleanliness Judging Guide.

7. JCRC is currently working on revising Chapter VI, Non-Authenticity. I have personally regarded that portion of the rules to be seriously lacking in detail and believe that many of its deductions need to be reapportioned. We hope to have the revision offered for comment on the Forum within the next 30-45 days and presented for ratification at the Orlando AGM in March 2005.

8. The JCNA web site now has a location for each club to list its Certified Judges and to report the Judges who performed the judging of each class at their JCNA Sanctioned Concours. This reporting requirement will focus further attention on the importance of certifying Judges and assuring that the rules governing Judging Team assignments are followed.

9. JCRC is also examining several proposed revisions to the score sheets:
- A very likely format change will be the addition of spaces on each sheet in which the Judge must note the specific location of the major condition and/or cleanliness deductions which have been made.
- the Mechanical section may get a more proper name and simplified scoring.
- the Boot component may be assigned to the Interior Judge, instead of the Engine Judge. This would be done in consideration of the extra time involved in judging the Engine compartment and recognizes that boot materials are common to the interior.

10. It has been shown that the JCNA Concours program can only absorb a few changes at a time and, since all major changes require AGM approval, the revision process is a slow one. As slowly as these changes come about, a major obstacle to Judge training has been getting the individual clubs to place a proper level of importance on the designation of a relatively long term Chief Judge. Once assigned, that person must read and understand the rules, conduct the prescribed judge training, certify those Judges that qualify and perform the many other duties associated with a legitimate concours judging effort.

11. If the rules aren't read and complied with, all the rewriting, research, protest, restoration, Forum angst and comment in North America won't change anything.

12. Each JCRC member receives the JCNA Concours Forum postings, pays close attention to what is being said and considers all qualified opinions in our rule deliberations. As with many things in life, one's problems are easy to enumerate, the solutions aren't. The forums are great places to share opinions and experiences; however, if you want to propose a specific concours-associated rule or procedures change, please send your idea direct to the JCRC Chair at the address shown in the Club pages of Jaguar Journal or directly to any member of JCRC. Member addresses may be accessed by clicking on the names found in the bottom right hand corner of the JCNA Concours Center web page. When submitting ideas, please indicate your concours and/or judging background and use a "Problem; Discussion; Recommendation" format.

Sincerely,
Dick Cavicke
Chair, JCNA JCRC

Pascal was a little short in his description of some of the recent improvements in the JCNA judging, but I'll amplify some of the remarks.

1. Judge's qualifications - Judges are now required to take an exam prior to judging at an event, albiet open book....several years ago there was no exam!

The assignment of the lead judge of each class should be considered carefully. Above all he should be reasonable, fair and consistent, but also knowledgeable in the classes he's asked to judge. Most of the lead judging assignments that I made were judges who had restored car in that class that were national champions, had very good cars, or some other expert experience! The chief judge should prepare for the Concours just like the entrant. Review the judges who will be judging the show and make approporiate assignments. Make sure the judges will be at the show. Have a back up assignment plan. On the day of the Concours - run the judge's briefing meeting, review any new rules, have a question and answer session about rules, and give the judge's exam. Finalize assignments of the judging teams. The chief judge should also resolve scoring/tallying issues with the lead scorer as the score sheets are processed. He should also approve the final results....usually this is done by a computerized scoring system, but he's rsponsible for the final tallys.

2. Certification - Judges will be registered as certified as of 2005 on a list maintained by JCNA.....a new requirement

3. Judging reference materials - Judging DVD's are being prepared for each class in the JCNA classes. Written judging guidelines are being prepared for each class as well. The progress to date is that three judging guidelines are either approved or are in review. A general judging guideline and perhaps a DVD is under discussion. Three DVD's have been produced and are either approved or are in review. Imagine how hard it is to produce a DVD and a judging guideline for each and every Championship class. Number one - find a near perfect example in that class and an expert who can tell not only what is right, but also what is wrong and why. Number two - take the time to have the car available for a taping session, getting together a crew, a DVD camera, a narrator, and a place (you can't do a tape session under your favorite apple tree in your back yard) Number three - Write the 10 to 12 pages of text that use include a reference ot source material, a book, the service manual, a parts manual, etc. Number four - submit the DVD and judging guideline to the JCNA chief judge and his committee who not only review it, but circulate it for peer review. Number five - make corrections on submitted material Number six - publish it. That's a lot of work, but the JCNA, the Chief Judge Dick Cavike, Gary Hagopian, and Hal Kritzman, JCSNE (Conn)are committed to the task.

How about my class 1B? It encompasses ALL drophead coupes and saloons from
1933 to 1950 with several different engines, LHD and RHD, home(UK)and export. Where do you find an expert in all those cars? I've seen SS100's, MK IV's and MK V's all entered in one show (JSCNE 2003)

Does the new approach work? Yes, it does! At the JANE Concours in 2003,
an entrant protested a judge's deduction. He showed me the specific judging guideline statement and I immediately signed off (as lead judge) disallowing the deduction. No protest to the scorers, no protest to the chief judge and no protest to the national protest committee!

4. Training - A number of clubs are running training schools, all day sessions that review the JCNA rule book, the score sheet format(and how to fill them out) and actual car judging followed by a critique of the judging teams. JANE and JSCNE has been running the judging training school as a joint "tech session" for several years and has at least 30 attending each and every year. The result is that there is a pool of trained, tested and certified judges for both of our concours.

The JCNA is committed to improvement! You can help by participating in judging, being a chief judge, running training schools, preparing judgelines and some of the other tasks that will result in the fair judging of cars.

As an aside, I have judged Bill Jenkins car on more than one occasion. He is committed to improving his car and each time I've seen it in competition,it was better than the previous outing. He also serves his home club as the head scorer, tallying all the scores for his Concours so he's doing his bit to make things better in JCNA!

Can it get better? Of course it can. Why not help out

Harry Parkinson
Former Chief Judge, JANE
1948 MK IV DHC, 3.5 litre
1947 MK IV Saloon, 3.5 litre

there will always be some exceptions and there might be last minute change if one or more guy dont' show up but I think most CJ plan their judging teams ahead of time.

as far as continuing to improve the sytem, even though the JCNA Concours Rule Committee may not be very visible but from what I have seen they are working hard to continue improving the system

Pascal

Pascal,

You are absolutely correct that the first step is to get good, validated and documented guides for each class in place.

You are however not totally correct in your assumption that Chief Judges always get judging assignments done in advance. I attended two sanctioned events this year (one as a particiapnt and one as a non-entrant) where no class judging assignments were made until minutes before the judging began. Maybe a more stringent qualification of Chief Judges is also a good starting point?

BTW, everything about the system IS BETTER than it used to be. I would just hate to see it stop getting better.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

I suggested that we needed model guides for every class and it sounds like that is being considered. I would be happy to volunteer my services to assist in drafting one for D07 and C13, qualifications are only that I have owned a car in this clsss for 5 years, and have looked at , competed against, and researched all cars from these classes. Im familar with the Majestic, VDP, XJ6, XJ12 and the European variants of them. Im familiar with the correct wheel types for all of these cars, correct interior appointments, familiar also with the correct finishes for the motors of these vehicles.

If I can help, let me know.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Edited on 2004-11-23 12:39:59

bob

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to... (making your day).

pascal

--

>>>>>

Sorry for any confusion. It meant,I was really really happy to read that things were moving along.

Bob.

You have no idea how much pleasure I derived out of reading this. Thanks for making my day Pascal. Why does the JCNA not make the members more aware of their intentions so that this build up of frustration with the present system would be avoided?

On your other point. In the past for me to avoid a conflict. I have put my car in driven classes because I have normally accepted assignments to judge championship saloon car interiors, my area of expertise. I know sweet nothing about 120,140 150 and e-types so I donÆt go there. However I have begun to accumulate some books on these cars in an attempt to widen my knowledge. Probably the way your guys handle it is better though because I find to try and prepare a car and judge at the same show makes you a little to busy to have time to socialize. Something I really like doing.

Bob.

i think the key to this is to provide judges with the right material to make them more knowledgeable about specific model. not only woudl model specific test taking it a little too far but without the material, it cant' work... the key right now is to develop the judging guides so that judges can prepare. since chief judges prepare their assignemnt in advance, it would be possible for judges to know what they will judge and review the judging guide a few days ahead.

in our club, most judges enter their own cars in display class, in part so that they can judge the cars they know best. does't always work out that way especially when they are entering other shows and competing for regional or NA awards.

I think a lot of the responsibility to improve judging lies with each club. JCNA can only do so much.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club