Concours awards.

Mr. Fulton,
Let's not "go there" with getting carried away unless you'd like to revisit the idea of combining Classes 1A & 1B again.

I think it's beneficial to the whole system and organization when people who care a great deal about something express their views. Mr. Higgs & Mr. Klein brought up excellent points with respect to concours awards. Without input from forums like these, the message is less likey to get through to those in JCNA leadership positions who have a responsibility to consider changes or face potential loss of membership & participation in the future. I remain concerned that we have two fine individuals with two beautiful Jaguars that at the moment, are highly unlikely to participate in future JCNA concours.

Some extremely relevant points have be debated so far in this thread and while the discussion may have gotten "carried away" I can assure you that there are no hard feeling between any of us.

Mike,

You are correct, we got way carried away.

However, as you and I have discussed the end result is still that the JCNA awards are not a "legitimate" as the press surrounding them would have one believe. I'm with you in that I am done with concours. If I ever attend another show it will be as display only. The headaches far outway another pweter dish and it saps all the fun of the socialization right out.

What I will do is try to improve the situation by personnaly learning as much as I can about one or two models and offering my services as a judge on the models I know.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

Pascal wrote: "to answer John's question, yes JCNA is working on improving judging standard...."
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Thanks Pascal. That is the information I was looking for.

Regards, John

Whew! You guys are really getting carried away here. They are just cars, though they are special cars. Have fun with them.
I have been doing the concours circuit for three years and I must admit that I am tired of all the inconsistant, political, and personal crap that I have seen. The judging situation has improved, but is still a long way from being perfect. And it never will be. You can't make all of the people happy all of the time.
Comparing my score sheets from show to show, it is quite interesting to see that there are always deductions taken on different areas that have never been deducted before. My car has been judged by people that I consider to be some of the most informed folks in the Jaguar world, but I am sorry to say that while being judged at an AACA show, last year, I was challenged by the AACA judges about authenticity more than I have ever been challenged by JCNA judges. And these folks KNEW what they were talking about. I was surprised at their knowlege.
So my plan for the future is to have fun with my car. I will have more fun just displaying her and kicking tires with other enthusiasts, than going through the rigors of prparing her for a concours. The greatest reward that I have received from being a member of the Carolina Jaguar Club and JCNA is the people that I have met and the relationships that have developed. It's not just about the cars.
1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Mr. Klein,

First off where did I ever say ôLetÆs stick to the facts.ö? Please re-read the thread.

With regard to peopleÆs choice format, IÆve participated in very few shows with that format and I never described it as ôdisgustingö. Most recently was at the 2003 British Invasion in Vermont where I wanted to participate in a sanctioned JCNA concours which took place on the same field at the same time where a peopleÆ choice format was going on at the same time.

IÆm sure you already know that under JCNA rules a judgeÆs score cannot be changed after the fact in cases like mine. You may conclude that this means the system is ôseverely flawedö but I and many others do not and you canÆt seem to accept that not everyone agrees with you. No system is perfect. I heard a story yesterday about a peopleÆs choice show where the ballot counters threw out ballots for a car that won in a certain class because ôit wasnÆt supposed to win.ö Would you agree that is ôseverely flawedö in your words?

The discussions about the pros and cons of the JCNA scoring system will be debated as long as there is a JCNA and there will always be problems, some big and some not so big. I still think we have a pretty good system.

I did not spell your name incorrectly on purpose. If you want some respect then you sir should show some yourself. I might suggest that you may have some people sympathetic to some of your concerns (including me) if youÆd take that huge chip off your shoulder.

this thread is getting out of hand, if you guys want to argue over each word used then please take it offline by email. This is getting nowhere.

to answer John's question, yes JCNA is working on improving judging standard.

- 2 Judging guides have already been approved, more are being prepared. These go a long way in setting standards and educating owners and judges on what's correct and not.
- Judging training has been improved, with a new judging test.
- starting with the 2005 season, judge certification will be tracked on line. Judges report which until now were either not submitted or just filed away will also be proccessed online so that a judging history database can be build to help track area of expertise and help spot inconsistencies.
- Judging videos / DVD / multimedia materials are being developped to help improve judging quality.

but the bottom line is that JCNA and its committees can only do so much. If local clubs don't follow the rules, ignore judging guides, don't make their judges pass the test, and above all do not try to improve judging quality there is very little that JCNA can do besides ruling on formal protest but that is obviosly limited in scope.

I stronlgy believe that if a concours entrant feels judges made serious mistakes in judging his car, he should contact the club headjudge so that in turn the judges can be made aware of the problem.

Pascal Gademer

Mr. Jenkins,

I also apologize to both you and the membership. I got way out of line. Let's, as you suggest, stick to facts.

Fact 1: You stated: "I came in second in a people's choice where the car that won was a pretty RED Series II XJ6 that had a nitrous..." and "At least with the JCNA system cars are judged on originality and the FREAK (my emphasis) cars with Chevy nitrous set ups are neither allowed to participate or face heavy deductions."

You then took exception to my calling some JCNA members elitist snobs. Webesters defines elitism as "a sense of being a member of an elite group". How does your complaining about losing to a FREAK at a cleraly non-JCNA event where, yes, people actually sometimes prefer a hotrod to a pure Jaguar not fit Websters definition? If you find the open car shows so digusting why do you participate?

Fact: You stated "the criticsm you make and the faults you find in the present JCNA system are extreme and not valid." I responded in part with an observation that your own car had a 15 point variation at two shows a month apart. This is documented quite well in YOUR post TITLED Judging Inconsistencies of 9/9/2004 where you stated among other FACTS "...this subject has been beaten to death..." and "At my most recent concours, when they announced my score, I almost didn't even walk up to accept the trophy..." You go on in this post to respond to my questioning why the 15 point difference that it was because a judge from you own club had a "personal vendetta" against you and that in the end the club leadership agreed with you. However, they did nothing to correct your scores and the original result stands as the offical result.

I am sorry but I just can't see how your statements about this event, the resulting in-action to correct the scoring and your own admission that this subject has been beaten to death (must be a reason it is such a hot subject?) do anything but support my opinion that the system is severly flawed?

Finally, you missed the point I was trying to make about the other awards having meaning to me versus the JCNA awards. Perhaps because I so poorly chose my words and language, my mistake.

I did not say that they meant my car was original or correct, nor did I assert that they were anything other than what they are, popular choices made by people who like ALL cars, regardless of pedigree or nameplate. THEY don't PRETEND to be anything else and they aren't.

However, you yourself have documented on this very site that the JCNA awards are not in the end based on correctness or cleanliness either. They are based on luck of the draw, the mood or "personal vendetta" of a judge, and often how many others (if any) in a class show up.

I'd simply said and still say that to me personally an award from a field of over three hundred cars at an open event of "Best in Show" or "People's Choice" has more meaning. By meaning I meant I cherish it more. I worked six years on a complete and total disassembly, restoration, and reassembly of my car and I know what is correct and what isn't. It has only ever been judged ONCE fairly and correctly versus the ORIGINALITY standard and that was my LOWEST score. I complained about getting HIGHER scores in a post and suggested possible ways to improve scoring accuracy and all I got in response was a bunch of angry "Stop rocking the boat" replies with NOT ONE person willing to work toward fixes.

BTW, my name is KLEIN. If you want respect then show some.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

Bob, please accept my apology if I offended you as that was not my intent. I was only expressing my frustration with my own personal experiences with the people's choice format and did not mean to belittle any awards you personally received.

>>>

Now come on William who is using unwritten words now????? I never said it was. If you read my post I said that "I" meaning myself valued two of my peoples choice trophy's above most of the others I had received. I also stated that when I was the only car in the class the trophy I was awarded was probably already discarded as having very little value to me. Why would it. I never beat anything or anyone, I just happened to be the only one to turn up at the show and got another dust collector for doing so.

Bob.

With regard to Mr. Walker's post and his point about "inconsistency" in my particular isolated case, it was a more a matter of a judge with a personal vendetta than the inconsistencies that we do indeed see throughout the JCNA concours judging system. As I explained in another thread, my solution was to contact the respective club leadership officers, explain my situation and they listend to me. I have been ensured that the problem with this individual judge with be addressed and rectified.

The present system is not perfect and I'm not trying to say that it is but I think it is a better system that a "people's choice" format which is not an opinion shared by Mr. Kline & Mr. Higgs as well as others.

A valid point John, but as I explained in particular isolated case, this was more a matter of a judge with a personal vendetta than a general problem with JCNA judging. As I explained in another thread, the solution was to contact the respective club leadership officers and I have been ensured that the problem will be addressed and rectified.

Well your "research" was wrong the wasn't it? Did you even bother looking at 2003 & 2002?

Your "high horse" comment is okay in your book? My point was you claimed I "ridiculed" Mr. Kline when in fact his comments were far more nasty and insulting yet you took no issue with him.

You seem to be confusing my difference of opinion as "throwing insults in (your) direction" which I have not done unlike you with your "high horse" nonsense.

If you would like to discuss this further, I would suggest that you email me directly as you are bringing this thread "off topic"

William Jenkins wrote: "In most cases cars HAVE NOT stood on the same field and the same day together. In may case when I did indeed stand on the field the same day with another entrant (which was only once), my car was judged considerably higher than his. He attended other concours before and after, and on average received higher scores and thus took 2nd in Class 12 this year over my third."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Inconsistency. This is a problem that is frequently brought up. I see solutions proposed, better judge training, etc, but I don't think I have seen anything concrete implemented by JCNA, or if it has been implemented I missed it.

How is JCNA addressing this problem, which I think is the major glitch in the judging system?

Regards, John

William. LetÆs recap a moment. I wrote that I value my peoples choice awards higher then most of the trophy's I got from JCNA events I attended this year. You can back with some really uncalled for insulting remarks about that. You then stated your support for the judging system as it stands right now and I looked up your attendance record and wrote I believe this would not have given ample experience to do an accurate assessment.

Now get of your high horse for a second and show me where I have either insulted you or expressed direct support for Mr. Klines opinion. I happen to agree with him on some items and disagree with him on others.

William you are the one that has been throwing the insults in my direction. I on the other hand have been treating you with the deepest of respect that I give any fellow Jaguar enthusiasts. I just donÆt happen to share your views on the stature of the North American awards against the regional award or your assessment of the judging as it present set up. There are some really fine judges out there that donate their time freely but at the same time there are a lot of guys judging that should not be. They donÆt bother to learn the rulebook or anything about the cars. They are the ones that spoil it for everybody.

Bob.

It's not a matter of taking anything "personally" nor did I get "upset" His comments were clearly out of line, don't you think? Or again, in your book it's okay to ridicule and insult so long as YOU agree with it, correct?

>>>>>> I have attended and judged in many shows over the years,

That would certainly explain you getting so upset over Mr Klines description of the JCNA Judges. You apparently took it personal.

Bob.

"V8 (looked under the hood of an XJ or XK8 lately?)"

This is truly comical!!! Mr. Kline, if you can show me an XJ6 that belongs in Class 12 with a V8 engine, I owe you an apology. And even if you could one with a Chevy V8, it would not be allowed in Class 12 in a JCNA sanctioned concours.

"V8 (looked under the hood of an XJ or XK8 lately?)"

This is truly comical!!! Mr. Kline, if you can show me an XJ6 that belongs in Class 12 with a V8 engine, I owe you an apology. And even if you could, one with a Chevy V8 is not allowed to enter in a sanctioned JCNA concours.

If Mr. Kline could control his emotions, he'd get his fact straight before drawing wrong conclusions and embarrassing himself.

I scored 15 points lower at a nearby club's concours at a later date because one of their judges was from my own club and was unreasonably harsh on my car which has been discussed in another thread on this forum. The head judge and the concours chairman of the respective clubs have been made aware of this situation and concur with my position that a judge from my own club behaved poorly and with malice (for example, he took cleanliness deductions on my tool kit when he didnÆt even look at it).

Mr. Higgs, I noticed that you took issue with my ridiculing of Mr. Kline yet you seem to find no objections with his ridicule of the JCNA system for example, his calling our judges ôsemi-literateö or referring to Jaguar owners as ôelitist snobsö and JCNA hierarchy as ôgetting off their odorless(sic) bums.ö Is ridicule okay in your book when it supports your opinion yet not okay when it does not?ö The tone of Mr. KlineÆs post prior to mine was clearly offensive, nasty and confrontational yet you seem to have no issues with him on this. Too bad you missed his second post that was so far off the deep end it had to be deleted by the webmaster.

And Mr. Higgs, I have attended and judged in many shows over the years, not only two this year so you too would be better served by getting your facts straight before you jump to conclusions as well regarding whether or not I have the necessary experience to have an opinion on JCNA concours judging. My guess is that I have far more experience showing and judging Jaguars at JCNA event that you do.

William. When people have contrasting view on ideas of what they consider is valuable to them and what is not. It does not mean one is right and one is wrong, nor does it give you the right to ridicule their beliefs because they differ from yours. Attending only two shows as I believe you have done this year would not I have thought afforded you a large spectrum in which to claim conclusively that a problem with the consistency of JCNA Judging does not exist. I happen to disagree with you on that but however I will defend your right to have and state an your opinion.

My car was at a show this year when the first thing one of the judges said to me was "Honestly I donÆt know much about these cars, are those fog lights original equipment or after market" At the next show the judge claimed that my mudflaps had to be aftermarket as were the hood mounted windshield washers and the headlight wipers. "Series III cars dont come with them". Finally he settled for deducting points for a round rubber swivel type stop that he considered out of place and a totally non existent chip in a wheel rim and not to forget the all time favorite of concours judges "the mandatory cleanliness deduction". That is what finally cost me from sharing first place in the North American scoring with the other two cars. Interestingly I had two other people check my car over just before this xxxxxx came to judge my car, nothing was seen by them.

The problem I have found is that no matter how much money and time you have spent on preparing your car for these shows, you are totally at the mercy of the individual show organizers and chief judges to provide good well informed, knowledgeable and ethical judges. I was lucky to attend three shows this year where the organizers had gone that extra mile to assure that this was the case. Toronto, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. I attended Toronto when I was still in the process of getting my car all sorted out, so my score naturally suffered a little. Pittsburgh and Cleveland the Judges caught every single blemish that actually existed on my car. At Pittsbugh they missed a scratch in a window glass which strangely enough was strategically hidden by a club sticker (Inside joke). By the time I went to Cleveland both the sticker and the scratch have been eliminated. At Indianapolis the last show I attended, my car was at its absolute best but was awarded its lowest score. I wanted to terminate the judging and head home the minute the judge opened his mouth and talked to me. I knew at that very moment that I had wasted my time driving the 700 mile to their show. Never again.

Bob.

Pascal,

How truly rude of me. After all, all Mr. Jenkins did was insult every female member of the JCNA and all women who dare to pretend to understand cars in general, me, and anyone else who doesn't know exactly what a Jaguar is or thinks it is ok for one to have a V8 (looked under the hood of an XJ or XK8 lately?).

And I'm sure that his scoring 15 points higher at his home clubs event versus one month later was due to significant changes in his car over that month and had nothing at all to do with friends, favoristism, politics or any other such nasty unsightly stuff. It also can't be the judging, as he has now taught me that all of the JCNA judges are experts and imminently qualified.

I stand corrected and will now drag my knukles back into the cave I clearly emerged from.

There, all better?

Jeff Klein

Jeff... your reply was deleted.

let's keep things civil, shall we?

Pascal Gademer
JCNA webmaster

Mr. Jenkins,

Exactly the kind of elitist, our feces don't have an odor, we are perfect pompous BS I've come to know and expect from the JCNA loyalist. Thank you for making my point in spades.

BTW, yes I know women who actually work on, drive and understand their cars. More than I can say for a lot of the "oney spent and work done by others" crowd.

I suppose I bribed, traded and otherwise "dealed" into my JCNA award as well. But no, no politics exist in that perfect system! Good riddance to you and your ilk!

Jeff Klein

Yep, it sure means a lot to win a people's choice award when you "trade votes" with guys who have other marques in other classes so you can both win. Now there's a good system as I see this happen at every "people's choice" show I've ever been at. Also people voting for their friend's car for no other reason that it's their friend's car. You mention a "Lady's Choice" format. Are these women judges who "get their hands dirty, work on their own cars, and drive them" who judge? My spidey sense tells me "no". If a JCNA concours is a beauty contest, then how is a "people's choice" format better? At least with the JCNA system cars are judged on originality and the freak cars with Chevy V8's or with nitrous set ups are either not allowed to participate or face heavy deductions.

Jeff, the criticsm you make and the faults you find in the present JCNA system are extreme and not valid while the down sides I pointed out about the people's choice system are a whole lot closer to the truth that anything you brought up.

Good luck stacking the ballot box in your future people's choice formats and making deals with the other entrants and having "real" judges like their wives and kids ("Daddy, what's a Jaguar?") vote for you car.

Even though our system is not perfect it's far superior to any people's choice format where trophys there are truly meaningless. You missed the mark completely with your rationale for regional vx national. In most cases cars HAVE NOT stood on the same field and the same day together. In may case when I did indeed stand on the field the same day with another entrant (which was only once), my car was judged considerably higher than his. He attended other concours before and after, and on average received higher scores and thus took 2nd in Class 12 this year over my third.

I've got to go with Bob on this one. "People's Choice" awards not only have meaning, to me they mean a lot morew than any of the JCNA awards. The People's Choice award, Lady's Choice Award, and Best of Show award my car won this year will all stay on the shelf while all of the JCNA plaques, plates, etc. will go with the car to its new owner without regret. Why?

First, let's look at what "Real Judges" means. It means they are semi-literate, period. They attended a meeting where the JCNA Judges Guide was reviewed and an open book test was given. That means asked a question and given the answer in a book they can find the correct answer most of the time. It does not mean they know anything about the mark of model they will be assigned to judge. In most cases they are forced by entery of the model they do know and own to judge cars they know little or nothing about. So much for "Real Judges".

Second, if you consider the lights working and the horn blowing a test of mechanical fitness then you are certainly NOT welcome to prepare a car I want to try to drive around the block.

Face it, JCNA councours is a beauty contest that is judged by amateur judges who in most cases are no more qualified than the average car show attendee.

I'll take the kind acknowledgement, honest curiosity, and accolades of the "Real" car guys who actually get their hands dirty, work on their own cars, and drive them over the elitist snob, Jaguar only, "My restorer said" crowd any day.

As far as Regional versus National status, bunk. REGIONAL means more because those cars have most likely stood on the same field on the same day judged to the same (arbitrary) standards. The National awards are meaningless and will continue to be unless the status quo crowd gets off their oderless bums and changes the rules.

BTW, don't fret, I won't be back to a JCNA event ever and I'll be over at the "Real" enthusiast shows having the "fun" you guys claim to be about.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG, Undeserving 2004 SE Regioanal Champ, James Shipe beat me fair and square and deserves the honor!

>>>>

William. Under normal circumstances I would have fully agreed with you. However at this particular show only the car owners themselves were eligible to vote. These were avid British car enthusiasts who had spent the time and money, like I have, to meticulously restore and maintain their own various makes of British cars. Oh yes my car is also Black, Black Cherry to be exact.

I am really sorry to say I simply donÆt share your enthusiasm for a third place finish in the North American standings when only three cars qualified for it. Why would that not signify simply a last place finish in the standings and how could that in anyway be considered prestigious.

As far as entering the Championship class next year. Your reason being????? Not saying I would not considerate it just interested in your reasoning for suggesting it. I promised to attend two shows next year and I will be keeping that promise but was planning on taking one of my other cars. My Black Cherry was causing too much confusion with the Judges because they had never seen a 1992 series III Limited edition Canadian V-12 VDP equipped the way mine is. They wanted to deduct for everything as being non original. When that did not work they deducted cleanliness points instead. ThatÆs life.

Thanks for you comments all the same.

Bob.

Sorry Bob, "People's Choice" awards are the ones that have no meaning. Shinny RED cars are usually the ones that win people's choice awards with no emphasis on originality, mechanicals, etc. the REAL things that matter when a car is judged. Do you really think that winning a people's choice award where some of the people who voted for your car had probably never seen a Jaguar before that show really means something?

I came in second in a people's choice format where the car that won was a pretty RED Series II XJ6 that had a nitrous system installed in it along with a series of other "hot rod" modifications. This car wouldn't even be competitive in Class 12 under the JCNA system due to the extensive modifications it has undergone.

Not only that, I was in the same class with an XJ6 from my own club that is a far superior car to mine (Virginia Raymond's '87 XJ6) and she didn't even place in the top three. Why, because her car is black, never mind the fact that it came in third in the country in 2003 in Class 12 when judged by REAL judges as opposed to some casual car show attendees who happened to like the color or in my case his "real cool nitrous set-up."

A third place national trophy is far more prestigious than a first place regional under our JCNA system and your analogy with Olympic runners is not a valid one.

Why not step up to Championship Class next year?

Okay let me try and explain it this way. You have three runners entered into the Olympics. An American and two from other countries. The American has qualified to represent the States by being recognized as the fastest man in the country by winning the American trials. In the Olympics he runs way back in third place and gets awarded a bronze medal. Would this mean if our present concours rules were to be applied to this situation that he could no longer claim he is the fastest man in the States.?????

Like the American in my story I donÆt want to get an award just because I attended enough shows to be counted and not enough other people did the same. I want one that means something to me. I donÆt care what it looks like just as long as it acknowledges an actual accomplishment. All the trophies I picked up this year when I was the only car in the class have already been discarded, they donÆt mean anything. However the two that I treasure most from this year are the one that says I had the best 1990 and later Jaguar at the show in Cleveland and a first place peoples choice award from a British car show that had over 1,300 cars in attendance.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

And unless they've changed it, the Regional trophy is simply a 1st place championship division pewter plate, something you probably have plenty of already. It has no inscriptions on it that reads Regional Champ.

I agree that I'd take 3rd NA over regional anyday!

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

I could throw in some comment about "America Light" or something along those lines, but lets just say I am lazy and national was a shorter word to type than North American....

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

DANIEL!!!!

careful... you're goign to get a ton of mail complaining about calling North American awards National! our Canadian friends get very upset bout that :-)

Pascal

National trophy is a lot nicer than a regional plaque. Id rather place in the top 3 in my class nationally than beat just the cars in my region. In fact I have been second in my region two years in a row and just missed the podium this year for a national spot, but thats my end goal.

However, I can understand with the severely flawed judging system we have in place right now, it may be more important to you to compete just against the cars in your region. So relax, you beat them , you dont need a trophy to say that!

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

no because to 99.99% of concours participants, a 3rd place North American award is better than a first place regional!

there are only 3 cars recieving NA awards each year, vs 36 receiving regionals...

Pascal Gademer

Thankyou again. So it comes down to that I shot "myself" in the foot by attending too many Concours this year. I should have limited myself to only attending two if I wanted to qualify in the regional scoring. Ah well live and learn.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

It's pretty simple...

- you need 3 scores to qualify for NA award
- you need 2 scores, obtained in your home region, to qualify for Regional
- NA award recipients do not qualify for regional

The car you think "disapeared into oblivion", listed in in 5th place in the full interim standings, and which would appear to be first in regional, doesn't qualify for regional becasue one of his scores was received at a concours in the NE region.

http://www.jcna.com/scores/results.php?standyear=2004&type=11&awardcfm=N...

Pascal

Pascal. I thought I had this all sorted out in my mind but I am getting more and more confused with this very complex scoring system. Now lets see if I have this right. Looking at the JCNA results board for the North Central region class D06. You now have a car presently qualified to receive first place that has a third place average. The car that had by far the highest average does not qualify for this award because it was relegated to third and last place in the North American standings and the car that had the second highest score has disappeared into oblivion. I think I am in need an aspirin.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

It's not my call, I simply write the online scoring system to comply with whatever rules are approved at the AGM.... but I don't think it would be fair since this would be bumping the current 1st place regional award recipient to 2nd place.

Pascal Gademer
JCNA webmaster

Thank you Pascal for your reply. I guess I should have read that part of the rulebook before posting the question. Anyway now we have got to this point. How does one have their car removed from the North American standings and placed back in the regional grouping? It is far more prestigious to me personally to have my car place at the top of the group of outstanding cars that mine has competed directly against all year. Third place in the North American championship does not hold that much appeal to me, in fact non whatsoever. However with that said I do offer my congratulations to both the guys that share first place. You both own cars in beautifull condition and fully deserve your placings.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

it's in the concours rules... a participant who receives a North American Award is not elligible for Regional.

since you are listed in 3rd place NA, the scoring program automatically removes you from the regional results.

afaik, nobody ever complained about this... everyone considers North American awards the "real thing"... it takes 3 entries, vs 2, far more serious competition, etc. etc. etc.

Pascal Gademer
JCNA webmaster