To Mr. Dick Cavicke, the rules comittee and all members at large.

If I am reading and understanding the new proposed rule changes, my Daimler DS 420 will no longer be eligible in classes C-5 or D-5, but would only be eligible in class S-3. Is this correct ??

These cars were producted for 24 years and were the "Flag Ships" of Jaguar, and although they were not producted in large numbers, they do not deserve to be relegated to the rather obscure class of F-3.

Perhaps it is time to create a new class for Jaguar and Daimler "Grand Saloons". The Jaguar Mark X, Jaguar 420G, Daimler Majestic Major and Daimler DS 420 are a few of the type of cars that would certainly qualify as "Grand Saloons" and they do deserve their own Class.

Most of these cars were manfactured in rather limited numbers, bordering on the rare or at least scarce, which I would think makes them all the more deserving of their own class. Although, my car did not win the "First Award" at all of its showings this past year, it never failed to attract an admiring crowd, for rairity is one of the features that make an item more desirable and collectable.

There is more that adequate imformation available from the Jaguar Heritage Trust, the open market and menbers librarys to fully educate a staff of qualified judges, so this should not be a serious concern.

These older, most elegant and classic cars do deserve their own class.

If any members would like to have a photo of my car, please e-mail me at allgauatatt.net.

Good motoring,

Daimler Don

Submitted by allgau@att.net on Fri, 02/27/2004 - 12:09

To all JCRC and JCNA members.

Re: Item: ôQuestion of eligibility of Daimler DS 420Æs for JCNA Concours Champion or Driven Division Entryö that is on the 2004 AGM Agenda.

Background: The current JCNA Rule Book, Chapter II Section 1 A.2, contains the following long-standing ôEligibilityö specifications:
A.2: ôJaguarö Definitionö
ôJaguarö is any authorized private passenger or race prepared vehicle assembled, or modified, at either the Jaguar Car Works or a Works authorized assembly plant.

(Comment: The Daimler DS 420 technically satisfies this description.)

>>>>My comment, The Daimler DS 420 fully satisfies the definition in every respect, please see the ôJaguar Journalö, January-February 2004, page 31 the photo in the upper right hand corner.

A.3: Swallow bodied chassis. S.S., Daimler & Jaguar Cars
For simplicity, of the Rule Book, ôJaguarö is used to refer to all models built by the companies that evolved into Jaguar Cars (see Appendix A)

(Comment: The Daimler DS 420 technically satisfies this description.)

>>>>My comment, The Daimler DS 420 fully satisfies this requirement, as it was conceived, designed and built under JaguarÆs ownership of Daimler.

A.4: Daimler
Only Daimler motorcars that closely resemble Jaguar (manufactured by Jaguar and sharing Jaguar Components) will be recognized for memberships eligibility and Concours Entry in the appropriate classes. The Daimler SP 250Æs and Majestics are NOT considered eligible.

(Comment: The Daimler DS 420 does not satisfy this requirement.)

>>>>My response, the term ôresembleö is subjective to the person doing the observing, and is not an absolute and therefore, logically open to discussion, debate or review. Please take note that the Daimler DS 420 is built on a Jaguar 240 G floor-pan (extended by 20 inches), uses a Jaguar rear drive unit and suspension, uses a Jaguar XK 4.2 engine, uses only Jaguar front steering and suspension components, uses a fascia and all of the instruments used are standard and used in several other models of cars manufactured by Jaguar, both front wings, bonnet and grill opening are of the same style as used by Jaguar, please see the ôJaguar Journalö, January-February 2004 page 28, the upper photo. It is true that the body panels from the scuttle rear-ward are quiet different from other models manufactured by Jaguar from the late 1970Æs through 1992, however, when you take into consideration all of the components used to build the DS 420, there are considerably more similarities than there are differences. Does a Mark VII resemble a XKR, does a Mark X resemble a XK 120, does a Mark II resemble a SS 100, no, there are many models of Jaguar that do not resemble one another, so why should the DS 420 be singled out for re-classification from the ôCö and ôDö classes ?

If the visual difference of the rear body panels of this car is what the JCRC is presenting as the reason to re-classify this car to the newly created obscure class of S-3, affectivity eliminating it from mainstream concours competition, then perhaps, 1), thereÆs a Jaguar owner somewhere who scored lower than a DS 420 and does not wish to compete against them in the future, 2), it is simply that there is a bit of prejudice against this model of Daimler, or, 3), the JCRC is just indulging in a bit of ônit-pickingö. IsnÆt one of the main objectives of JCNA to bring, all owners of and all models of cars manufactured by Jaguar together in an atmosphere friendship, comradely and equality ?

I do wish to thank Mr. Dick Cavicke for his kind offer to address all future related questions relating to the ôapparent limited interestö in the re-classification of the Daimler DS 420 to him directly rather than in the forum. However, feel that any concern of any member should be open to discussion and debate by the full membership in the most open form available.

Perhaps it would also be desirable, that all future proposed rule changes, by-law changes or other actions to be taken by the JCRC and the JCNA should be submitted to each Jaguar Affiliated Club in writing at least ninety (90) days prior to its submission to the Board of Directors for each clubs review, comments and suggestions, after all JCNA (as with any governmental body) exists solely, at the pleasure of, and for the benefit of the membership.

As always, good motoring,

Don Wright

Daimler Don

Submitted by SW03-09811 on Tue, 02/17/2004 - 16:47

Mr. D. Wright,

Several years after Jaguar Cars and Daimler were combined, the original authors of the Rule Book saw fit to include a specific appearance requirement for those Daimlers eligible for JCNA Concours. That rule says: "Only Daimler motorcars that closely resemble Jaguars (manufactured by Jaguar and sharing Jaguar components) will be recognized for membership eligibility and Concours entry in the appropriate JCNA classes." Daimler SP250's and Majestics were specifically excluded.

After improving our knowledge of Daimler models, JCRC's proposed class descriptions now note those Daimlers considered to "closely resemble" Jaguars and that, thereby, are eligible for the Champion and Driven Division Concours classes. The eligible models share Jaguar bodies with: the MK2; the 420; the Series 1, 2 and 3 XJ6/12 Saloons and Coupes, the XJ40; X300; and X308. The base line Jaguar models (to which Daimlers are compared) are, therefore, those produced in the same years as the subject Daimlers, whose bodies, trim, and equipage received minor modifications and were given Daimler badging.

The Daimler DS420 was examined after its concours participation and class eligibility were questioned. As a result of that examination, JCRC concluded:
- the DS420 does not closely resemble any production Jaguar-badged car,
- its years of manufacture (1972-'92) do not match any single Champion Saloon Class. Its years correspond only to Driven Class D07, Series 1, 2, and 3 XJ6/12 Saloons and Coupes,
- its relative rarity does not warrant the creation of a separate JCNA class to accommodate it, and
- it fits most appropriately into the new Special Division Class 3.

In order to validate or adjust our position, JCRC will ask the AGM delegates to vote on whether the Daimler DS420 limousine should be eligible for any classification other than that proposed.

Submitted by allgau@att.net on Mon, 02/16/2004 - 08:41

Mr. D. Cavicke,

In reply to your posting of 30-12-2003 ôRe: Clarification of Proposed Rule Changeö.

Your items #Æs 3 and 4) It seems that the objection now being used to keep the Daimler DS 420Æs from being shown in the Classes C-8 and D-5 and to justify their re-classification to Class S-3 is the fact that someone or some group has decided that this car ôdoes not closely resemble Jaguarsö. Now there are many different models of Jaguars that do not resemble each other, so would you please be so kind as to tell me which model of Jaguar is the ôbase line modelö that is the standard used to judge ôresemblanceö by ?

Your item # 5) Mr. HarveyÆs book is a good book and perhaps a good one to use for reference, however, I do take umbrage with the statement ôto replace British LeylandÆs Austin Princessö, this car had been out of production for some time, having been replaced by the Daimler Majestic Major which is the car that the DS 420Æs replaced. The DS 420 did not ôreplace the occasional Jaguar MK X or 420 Gö, nor compete with these cars, but was a continuing extension of JaguarÆs line of finer cars to provide a car befitting those who wished a truly ôfirst classö car that was luxurious, reserved and classic in appearance, provided the same size passenger compartment all at a lower purchase cost that the Rolls Royce Phantom.

Your item # 6) Here again I must disagree, your statement ôwas apparently neither designed by Jaguar nor intended as a Jaguarö is only half correct. The DS 420 ôwas designed and built totallyö under Jaguar control, however, you are correct in the statement that, the DS 420 was not intended to be ôbadgedö as a Jaguar, and again you say, ôSince it (meaning the DS 420) does not resemble any Jaguarö, and again I ask which model Jaguar is the base line model used to judge resemblance. The term ôresemblanceö is subjective to the person doing the observing, not an absolute and therefore open to logical debate.

As always, good motoring,

Don Wright

Submitted by XKERudy@swbell.net on Thu, 01/22/2004 - 11:07

TO: Dick Cavicke
RE: Reply Dated : 2003-12-30 14:42:59

Thanks for your very well written response to my post.

I have started to write this several times, and am now spurred on by the
recent posts regarding class consolidations or lack thereof. Originally I wanted to voice my agreement to Don Wright's letter in the Jaguar Journal which I interpreted to say that we, as an organization, should encourage all to participate by making them feel welcome and by encouraging them to show their cars.

Under no circumstances should any entrants be coddled either through class
picking or by lowering the standards for the best cars. The members that have spent years (lifetimes) participting, drafting rules, attending meetings, organizing and everything else to keep this a viable and
dynamic group should be listened to and respected. Dialogue is important and will help to keep bringing everyone back but structure is essential.

Rudy Hatcher 66 E-Type OTS

Submitted by SW03-09811 on Tue, 12/30/2003 - 14:42

Mr. Wright and Mr. Hatcher,

1. The members of the Judge's Concours Rules Committee (JCRC) represent extensive experience both showing and judging Jaguars in each JCNA region. Our objective has not been to make new rules, nor to deliberately exclude certain models but, instead, to clarify the existing rules and to correct errors while upholding JCNA philosophy and the goals we believe underlie its concours program.

2. Even though the main activity at JCNA Concours involves judging cars, it is by no means the only activity. Many attendees have little interest in the competition but still come to share their cars and socialize with others. Rare Jaguars are most often displayed in positions of prominence on the concours field, whether or not they're to be judged. Clubs are being encouraged to invite all members to bring their Jaguars to the concours for display and the enjoyment of all. Not having one's car judged or entering one class or another will not keep it from being admired.

3. Chapter 2 has, for some time, included the General Rule:
"Daimler. Only Daimler motorcars that closely resemble Jaguars (manufactured by Jaguar and sharing Jaguar components) will be recognized for membership eligibility and Concours Entry in the appropriate JCNA classes. The Daimler SP250's and Majestics are NOT considered eligible." Because of confusion over Daimler model designations, last year, the DS420 was listed as eligible for Champion Division class C-08 and Driven Division class D-05 in place of "Majestic Majors". That change was an error that has been corrected in the proposed change to Chapter 2.

4. In 2003, several competitors questioned the class eligibility of the Daimler DS420. Thereafter, JCRC determined that the DS420 does NOT satisfy the long-standing JCNA requirement which states only Daimlers that "closely resemble Jaguarsà" are eligible. The distinction is very obvious. Following Jaguar's acquisition of Daimler, many versions of production Jaguars were given minor exterior and interior changes and then badged as Daimlers; they are easily recognized since, sharing Jaguar bodies, they closely resemble their Jaguar counterparts such as MK2s, 420s, and various XJ6/12 models.

5. Chris Harvey's Great Marques, Jaguar book describes the DS420 as:
"àthe Daimler limousine, (was) introduced in June 1967 to replace British Leyland's Austin Princess, the 4 1/2-litre Daimler Majestic limousine, and the occasional Jaguar MKX or 420G with limousine fittings that had been produced in the 1960s. This enormous car, which used an extended version of the 420G floorpan with the 420G's running gear, was no less than 5470mm (18ft 10in) long and a full seven-seater. As such, with bodywork designed by the British Leyland subsidiary, Vanden Plas, it sells for less than a quarter of the price of a Rolls Royce."

6. From the foregoing, it may be concluded that the DS420 was apparently neither designed by Jaguar nor intended as a Jaguar. No version of it was ever called or badged as a Jaguar. Since it does not resemble any Jaguar, it technically only meets the eligibility requirements of the existing Champion Division Class 16, as a Jaguar Powered, Modified or Special Interest Entry.

7. During its adjustment of concours classes, JCRC acknowledged the existence of Daimler DS420s, and named them eligible for Class S3 "Modified", in the proposed Special Interest Division.

8. Under the existing JCNA policy, the rarity or age of a Jaguar does not qualify it for an exclusive concours class. As has happened in the past, when fewer and fewer older cars are shown, consolidation of classes is required in order to maintain actual competition within each class. JCRC carefully studied and will continue to study the annual JCNA concours participation data prior to making its recommendations. Old Jaguars will ALWAYS be welcomed at concours, whether or not they are entered for judging. JCRC does not believe a separate class for Grand Saloons is warranted at this time.

9. Your interest in and long support of JCNA is acknowledged and appreciated.

Regards,
Dick Cavicke
Chairman, JCRC