Proposed Changes to JCNA Concours Classes

I agree with Mr. Stephenson. Putting C10 to C12 together makes a class that is way to big. There is little in common between a Series I and a Series III. This is unfair competition.

I know I mentioned it in an earlier post but I would still like to express my objections about the proposal to combine Classes 10, 11 & 12. I think that there are considerable differences between Series I, II and especially Series III XJ6's, just the same way that there are significant differences between Series I, II & III E-Types and there is no talk about combining classes C5, C6 & C7 nor D2, D3 & D4. Now that I mention it, how about combining classes C2, C3 & C4?

What is the latest thinking on this subject?

I was so looking forward to it too, but its a long drive, I have been super busy with work, and I wanted to do a weekend thing with the wife. I pick my battles, and the look on her face said this wasn't one of them, maybe next year. Maybe she just said that as an excuse not to go, who knows!

We will definitely be down to San Diego for your show next year, it was a beautifully run show, a nice city to visit, we quite enjoyed our weekend there. Thanks again.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Daniel A.
JCRC has been listening to the responses generated by our proposed class revisions and will modify some of the initial
recommendations. The latest version will be posted in a few weeks and will likely split the XJ8s and subsequent out of
Classes C-13 and D-07 and into their own classes.

Sorry you won't be in San Luis Obispo. I intend to be there and would be happy to talk with you.

Dick cavicke

Well, I had been planning to attend the joint Concours at XKs unlimited in two weeks, but the wife had just this comment:

" I dont want to go just to see you lose to brand new cars" , now she is not some trophy hound, and she actually would prefer it if I would NOT win, so she doesnt have to hear about it on the 5 hour drive home, but its clear to me that if someone with zero Jaguar interest and knowledge can see something wrong with C13 and D07, then why doesn't JCNA?

It wasnt worth fighting over, so I guess I won't be there. I didnt feel like coming by myself, bringing the wife was a prerequesite.

So class issues definitely hurt participation if you ask me.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

John,
JCRC has not addressed knock-offs as a specifc Driven Division authenticity exception. I will raise that issue with the committee
members. I personally have not seen many Series 2 E-types that have reverted to "eared" knock -offs.

The wheel-related exceptions suggested thus far were made mostly in consideration of XJS's and other XJ's whose original
wheels may have been chromed by the dealer (or owner).

Dick Cavicke

A question for Dick.

The proposed rules change says wheels must be of the same style as original. What about knockoffs, for judging purposes are they considered to be "part of the wheel"? Will there be a deduction in Driven if a Series II E-type were shown with Series I eared knockoffs? I ask because this is a somewhat popular change.

Regards, John

George, You got me there as I've never even been in Tiajuana, but it , in my mind , seemed an appropriate discription for the tackiest car I think I've ever seen. I have no faith what so ever in any type of peoples/entrants choice awards, but, if I thought, or I should say, our club, thinks this type of class would attract new people, why not try it once or twice and see what happens. I'm sure that we agree on what the outcome would be.

Bob just exactly how much do you know about Mexican Cat houses? In two words all of this "Choice" awards can be called what it is everywhere else-----FRENCH VOTING. I'll stop.

George Camp

I find it interesting that some clubs seem to have numerous display entries. We rarely have more that 1 or 2 and usually it is someone who can not be at the show so they enter display and have someone drive the car to the show and park it just to have another car on the field. They are doing this to support the club and the show even though they can not be there. We do not judge display cars, period. Nor do we award the picture plaque unless we happen to have an extra. These people are not competing so they get no perks accept our thanks for bringing the car out. We encourage the doubtful to enter Driven as this should be the feeder group to Championship.
Personally I think not having a good modified Driven class will loose a lot more participants than anything done in Display. There are lots of folks out there who will "personalize" their Jag somehow and they are not going to change it no matter what, so deal with it. We already have a proposal to cut all factory modified race cars out of Championship and that is bad enough. Are we "inclusive" or "exclusive"? If you answer that I believe you will then know what the future of JCNA will be.

Linda Young
Jaguar Club of Tulsa

L D Young

Stevo,

The problem with that is that it will add another 10 classes, bringing the total to 40 (unless you have some consolidations in mind ;->). Clubs already have enough trouble making sure they have enough trophies, but not too many, for everyone. At average $20 each, that's a big hit. They might make up for some of that by charging the full rate for all the new cars, but at most concours the price differential is only $10-15.

Since the people who show up at the last minute haven't had the foresight to pre-register, they are also usually the people who didn't have the foresight to start cleaning their car a few weeks in advance, so they generally prefer to enter display. It's hard enough trying to cope with the last minute arrivals in the judged divisions -- it will really be rough on the trophy person if they have to handle it for another ten classes.

People who only want to display their cars really aren't interested in competition, otherwise they'd enter the judged divisions. I think your argument about getting members involved and perhaps moving up to judged divisions is valid. Likewise, your idea that it will give the entrants something to do and perhaps encourage them to become certified judges, has merit. But to be honest, the display car owners haven't put the time into detailing, so I think lumping them all together and awarding three trophies for the the whole bunch is sufficient.

That's what I'm going to propose for our concours 11/15. I like "Participant's Choice." I'll probably call ours that.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Ok, I'll agree that deleting Driven and replacing it with Participant's Choice may not add anything. So then I would think the thing to do is add the Participant's Choice Division as a mirror image of the Driven Division. Maybe this could be done on a trial basis at several concours across the country next year, soliciting clubs to volunteer to conduct such a competition at their concours. In this way we could gauge the interest in this new proposed division and see how it affects overall attendance and specifically how it impacts the current Driven Division. You would have to publicize this well in order to get a good test of the popularity (or lack thereof) of the Participant's Choice Division. As a result of this testing in 2004, an informed decision whether to carry this nationwide in 2005 could be made.

One thing that must be said is that any Participant's Choice Division that is successful requires a sufficient number of classes so that the same car types do not always win. In a single Display Class, the older Jaguar will ALWAYS win...there is no way an XJ-S would ever beat any E-type or XK for Participant's Choice. This is why you would need as many classes as there are currently set up for the Driven Division. As far as voting is concerned, it should always be one ballot per entered car, this way you don't get families voting. You can't (and ahouldn't) be voting if you don't have a car entered. It is PARTICIPANT'S Choice, NOT PEOPLE'S Choice! Which is a criticism of many such events, with every Tom, Dick and Harry being allowed to vote. One car, one vote.

Stevo

Bob,

Thanks, for putting up with my revamp-everything approach. (I was up until 2:30 a.m. writing that.) There's a lot of good in what we have now. I think we just need to re-examine how it all falls together and see if there's a better way. If there was a way we could encourage driving, but set up a system so driven cars would be competitive with trailer queens, we'd have the ultimate enthusiasts competition.

I agree with your assessment of the People's Choice as an option. I'm going to push for our concours to have a People's Choice competition among all the display cars. My plan would be to have all entrants pay the same entry fee, and have three trophies equivalent to the division trophies for the display cars. All entrants would receive ballots in their bags and all current JCNA members without entries would receive them upon request, so we'd keep out the hoi-polloi. ;-)

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Stew, I couldn't agree with you more on the basic unfairness of most 'peoples choice' type of shows. We had this driven home with a very large hammer at last years 'Battle of the Brits' meet. This event is put on by the local Triumph club, is very well publisized and attracks upwards of 700 Brit cars. The most God awful & tacky MK9 that I've ever seen, with a two tone paint job that would be more appropriate parked in front of a Tiajauna cat house, was picked as the best Jaguar at the meet! Guess that he had a group of friends there as among the cars that he beat was a high 99.90 Swallow bodied Wolseley Hornet Special that was at our show the day before. I should mention that among the Jags present there were only two that were not entered in our Concours. We attend one of these type shows every year and one thing is for certain, if the most popular person doesn't win it will be a red or silver blue OTS in the E-Type class. You could have the best Fawn colored S3 in the world and be totally ignored!
As I mentioned in a post earlier this year, if a club believes that a 'peoples choice' type of class would draw NEW people then quit talking about it and just do it on your own! There will be no problem with JCNA as most all of the clubs had some type of driven class before JCNA made this an offical class. JCNA has shown in the past that changes will be made if there is a need for it. As the folks from Missouri say,"show me!"
I personally believe that the talk of allowing owners choice of wheels, within reason, tires and modern radios will correct the main opposition to the current driven rules.
Bob
To Mark S. You must type with more then one finger as it would take me all day to write messages as long as yours and I'm only half way kidding! Keep it up, as you always give us something to think about!

Perhaps the problem we are wrestling with here, Champion vs. Driven vs. Display vs. Modified, comes down to too much of an emphasis on cosmetics. I know I'm not the first one to express this opinion. Currently, based on the maximum deductions, excluding authenticity, 35% of the score is cleanliness, 7% is safety, and 57% is all the other little cosmetic boxes on the scoresheet. Authenticity deductions could potentially drop whatever score is left to zero, however in actual practice authenticity deductions are rarely more than a few points of deductions. I'd bet that by far, most points deducted for cars in the 90-99 point range were for cosmetics, not authenticity.

Now take a look at that in terms of the purpose of JCNA. The first line of Article I of the By-Laws states, "The objects and purposes of JCNA are to promote interest in motoring, foster and encourage a spirit of mutual interest and assistance in the acquisition and preservation of Jaguar automobiles among owners." In other words, we are trying to encourage driving and preserve the cars. That motoring is mentioned first gives some indication of the priorities of the founders. Nevertheless, we start out with a kind of schizophrenic concept that we have to resolve to the best of our abilities. We have to come up with the best balance between driving and preservation.

We are supposed to be encouraging driving, but what emphasis do we place on safety? 7%. What emphasis do we place on a well-tuned, properly running car? 0%. As long as it can chug into place on the concours grounds that's all we require.

Let me give you a real head-scratcher. Is a car preserved if it's dirty? If it has stone chips? If the seat leather is cracked? If the tires are wider than original spec? If an generator has been replaced by an alternator? If a Moss Box has been replaced with a 5-speed? I purposely ordered the questions this way to see where people start feeling a little queazy.

I don't think anyone will argue that the first question has no bearing on preservation, yet that's 35% of what we judge for. Stone chips are easily fixed and cracked leather can be replaced without affecting the integrity of the car, but that's over half of what we concentrate on. Alternators where generators should be is deserving of a deduction, but that's not checked in Driven Division. If someone supplants an Moss box with a properly fitting 5-speed, no one is going to know the difference because it's not checked at all in any division! These are examples on a sliding scale moving away from preservation, yet what we emphasize at our concours is almost exactly the opposite. It's a good thing that Jaguar owners have a personal desire to preserve the marque, because to a large extent the JCNA judging system isn't. How so?

Take the average daily driver. Such owners should be commended and rewarded, yet we emphasize cosmetics and cleanliness to such an extent that we've driven them out of Champion Division where they can't possibly compete with trailer queens, no matter how original or authentic their car is. Now they find themselves in a class where the engine compartment and boot aren't checked. What incentive is there to keep those areas authentic? Why not use Phillips screws in place of slotted or the standard slotted hose clamps in place of Cheneys or Jubilees? Why not replace the molded Jaguar hoses with flex hoses? Swap alternators for generators? Disk brakes for drums? It won't affect the score.

If the scoresheet was adjusted so that authenticity was given a much higher importance compared to cosmetic considerations, that would more closely serve the dual purposes of the JCNA. How many more people would try to keep their cars original if the tarnishing of perfection from frequent driving didn't put them out of contention? How many more trailer queens would be out on the road?

This is but one of a slew of suggestions that have come in from all corners. Eliminate driven, add Modified, change Champion, create more classes, eliminate classes. We wonder why we don't have more participation and keep lowering standards to try to encourage it, to the point that we are considering a division that would let any Jaguar-powered hatchet-job that's clean and well-painted win a trophy (I'm not referring to a tastefully personalized Jaguar here, but what's acceptible under the definition of the Modified Division.) We're Neros fiddling with patches as judged concours participation as a percentage of total membership falls and the display category at most concours approaches the number of judged cars.

I know it's the way it's always been done, at least for the memory spans of most of us here, but I think we have strayed far from the original intention of the JCNA: first and foremost to encourage motoring and second to preserve these fine automobiles. These are not mutually exclusive, but the way we have it set up now, they are very close to it.

I suggested this before and I'll suggest it again. Rather than trying add patch after patch to a system that isn't encouraging participation, is rewarding sparkling prefection at the expense of driving, and making preservation a less insignificant factor for drivers; we should take a serious look at starting from scratch. The principles are defined. I think we should start a continental brainstorming session. Other marques have some interesting procedures. We should distill the best ideas into a new framework based on the founding purposes of the JCNA. At every step along the way, we should ensure that we are not sacrificing one side of the driving-preservation dichotomy for the other. Our goal should be that the best preserved, most authentic cars are the ones most highly praised, whether they are driven to work every day or are trailer queens.

What form will the result take? I don't know but here's an example of a radical departure that just hit me. Suppose rather than lumping authenticity and cosmetics together into one score, we award a trophy for each. An unmolested daily driver would have just as much chance at winning the authenticity award as a trailer queen. A personalized car would have just as much chance to win the cosmetic award as a time-capsule car. No seconds, No thirds. One car could win both. You eliminate the need for a Preservation Class, because if everything is preserved just as it left the factory it will win. You eliminate the need for a Modified Division because the cosmetic award has no authenticity component. Do you eliminate the Driven Division? Hmmm.

This may not be the answer, but with enough suggestions, we'll hit on it.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Gonna jump in again! Doing away with driven is not the answer. Driven serves a very useful purpose from what I can see, it encourages "regular" Jaguar owners who get the most use out of their cars to shine up for shows, participate and get the same thrills that the 100 point restoration car owners get.

One other thing that comes to mind, even nearly 10 point , perfectly restored driven cars may have common modifications to the engine compartment to make the car more drivable. Items such as modified intakes, wiring, ignition, and so on. Take the cars with these modifications which they can't compete in championship out of the mix, and you would lose all that participation, your concours would drop to 10 or 20 cars per show, so thats obviously not the right direction.

Id say take the display class and have a single participant vote for best in class, ( note, not a best in show, or peoples choice award, just a best display Jaguar award) If I am not mistaken JCNA concours rules allow this already on a club by club decision basis. Doesnt seem to me that it would hurt anything. It seems to me that really no action is needed except continuing to push attendance at the club level, then you cross some of the bridges that need crossing when you come to them.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
Jaguar Owners Club

Steve and Pascal,

IÆve been reading your posts with interest. We in the Northwest have a lot of what we call All British Field Meets (ABFMÆs). These are held throughout the season starting in May on Victoria Day Weekend, in Vancouver, BC. ThereÆs another in Bellevue, WA. in July, and yet another in Portland, OR. over Labor Day Weekend. These events include all British Marques and usually have around 500 cars shown. I attend them all, but only show my cars in Portland. They all have peoples choice voting and nothing but. However, the Portland event includes the JOCO JCNA Sanctioned Concours. After first registering for the ABFM ($35.00 û pays the field rent), those wanting to enter the JOCO Concours send another separate registration form off to JOCOÆs Concours Chair with another $20.00 registration fee. All cars are eligible for peopleÆs choice awards, which are given for 1st 2nd and 3rd in several classes for all marques. The point of all this is, you donÆt have to have a special division or rules to have a peopleÆs choice in conjunction with a sanctioned event û just do it. We have for 27 years and nobody ever worried about it.

Personally, IÆve never bothered with peoples choice voting û itÆs a popularity contest with people diving into trash cans to salvage unused ballots, and big families all voting for DaddyÆs Car. Also, in such a big show, placement has a lot to do with who wins. I know because I place the Jaguars in this event and cars placed on the main isle always win. Furthermore, politicians have a tremendous advantage in peopleÆs choice and have been known to overcome placement.

But with all its pitfalls, the peopleÆs choice thing doesnÆt take anything away from our Concours thing and our Concours thing doesnÆt take anything away from the peopleÆs choice thing û a win-win situation.

FYI we get about 25 Champion Division entries, 25 Driven Division entries and 30 people registering for the ABFM only. JOCO usually picks up 5 new members at this event.

Personally, I consider myself a serious Concours participant. I remember attending a really nice show in the Eugene area for three years in a row with peopleÆs choice or participantÆs choice (you only vote if you bring a car). The first two years they had modest but nice trophies. To my amazement, the third year they stopped giving out trophies - IÆve never gone back. The second year, a JOCO memberÆs driven (an 8.5) beat my champion 99.4 in peoples choice, but he had the decency to apologize to me û go figure.

Hope this helps.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2and other LBC's

"maybe "some" of those members would turn to the Championship Division for judging, don't you think"

no... it just take too much time to prep teh engine bay and boot. it's easy for a non driven car but if a car is driven near daily it's just not feasible/worth it. how can it compete agains trailer queens??? that's the point of having a driven division.

I don't get the concept of driven participant choice. if it's participant choice, why even call it driven.

what are the benefits of dropping Driven classes? none. the cons? making a lot of members unhappy!

if you want to increase participation, try to attract those who don't want their cars judged. Create a participant choice division to replace display, currently treated as 3rd class citizens. add to create growth, don't remove and discourage those JCNA members who have been working to keep their interiors and exteriors in great ORIGINAL condition

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Pascal said: "There are many members who enjoy showing their car in driven and since originality is judged (interior and exterior) it's an important division. Making it a Participant choice would only turn away some members, the opposite of what we're trying to do!"

Pascal, maybe "some" of those members would turn to the Championship Division for judging, don't you think?

Pascal said: "There are many Jaguar owners who show up at British Car Shows but don't want to deal with judging and dont' show up to clubs annual concours."

Exactly my point, Pascal. There are "many" (not just "some") who go to non-judged shows and won't participate in ours. The "many" we attract by offering a particpant's choice Driven Division will more than offset the "some" we lose by having it no longer judged. Just remember, they still have the option of moving to the judged Championship Division.

Stevo

I don't see the point of cancelling Driven and making it into a Participant choice class.

there are many members who enjoy showing their car in driven and since originality is judged (interior and exterior) it's an important division.

Making it a Participant choice would only turn away some members, the opposite of what we're trying to do!

BUT... to encourage display and those who are not participating in cnocours competition to show in a Participant choice class. No negative to that, only benefits.

there are many Jaguar owners who show up at British Car Shows but don't want to deal with judging and dont' show up to clubs annual concours.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Let me reiterate my recommendation to increase participation in JCNA concours. Keep the Championship Division as a JUDGED compettion (as is now, class consolidation issues aside), and make the Driven Division a PEOPLE'S CHOICE competition (keeping the classes as is). Why do this? For several reasons.

1) It gives BOTH types of people who want to show their cars a venue in a single event. Some people have posted that they are ONLY interested in judged competition while others state otherwise. That's the point, everyone has an opinion. Therefore, why not offer BOTH types of events at the same time. Attract BOTH types of competitors. You want to be judged? Then enter the Championship Division. You just want a low key affair? The enter the People's Choice Driven Division. It's kind of ridiculous to have a judged Driven Division when the engine and trunk compartments are not judged. How authentic is a car where major portions are not even looked at? Clean you engine and trunk and enter Championship if you want to be judged and leave the Driven Division for much less serious competitors who would like a low pressure competition.

2) Think how much less work it would be for the judging teams if they didn't have to look at the Driven cars. It would take many fewer judges, making it easier to organize an event properly.

3) Wouldn't it be nice for the participants at JCNA concours to have something more to do besides just sitting around waiting for the judges to come by? How boring. If they had a chance to vote for Driven Division winners, they'd have something to occupy some of their time.

Concours participation will continue to deteriorate until JCNA offers its members more than the traditional approach it continues to take. Offering people a less competitive Driven Division that is FUN to participate in will get more people involved in Concours, and may get these Driven participants to make the step up into the judged Championship Division as they learn to appreciate the joys of authenticity and cleaning to the Nth degree.

Stevo

There are so many facets of what people think is right and wrong with JCNA Concours, I’m not sure where to begin. Personally I feel that our concours and judging system is one of the best among car clubs through out the country.

I think I’d be considered one of the “purists” who believes the true meaning of concours which the General Spirit Statement says in part “The judged portions of the cars are to be restored, maintained and/or prepared as closely as possible to their original, as-delivered Jaguar Factory configuration and condition.” As a result, my interest lies particularly in Championship Division cars and judging pretty much along the lines of our present judges manual.

Personally, I see no down side to the relatively large number of classes that we presently have. Yes, it’s unfortunate that the average concours may only have one or two cars in each class but in my opinion, when you compete in coucours, you are really competing against yourself. I really don’t care too much whether I place 1st, 2nd, or not at all, I concentrate on trying to improve my score as I enter in each concours. For instance, there is another member in my own club who I directly compete with and if she brings her car to any concours I’m in, guess what, I’ll finish behind that car, no matter what. No one can control what other cars will show up at a concour but you certainly can address the imperfections and detailing of your own car. After each concours, you address your deductions and strive for a better score each time.

There are many theories as to why concours participation appears to be decreasing. I think the main reason is that people don’t want to take the necessary time that is required to prepare their car for a concours. Sometimes I ask myself why I put all that time into my car as well!! However as others have stated, we all participate in concours for any number of reasons and at this point, the hours of labor that I put into preparing my car for a concours are well worth the enjoyment of having my car on the field, having it judged and spending an entire day with Jaguar enthusiasts.

I do not favor any form of “people’s choice” as a method of determining who wins a class for two reasons. Number one is, as someone mentioned in a previous post, it seems red convertibles always win and number two is people tend to vote for their friend’s cars and not necessarily the “best” car in any particular class. Speaking of which, in people’s choice formats, what exactly are the guidelines for determining which car gets your vote? I usually vote for a car owned by someone I know and since I dislike red as a color for a car, I’ll never vote for a red car anytime I cast a vote in a people’s choice contest. I think this pretty much proves my point.

Now, getting back to the matter at hand which is the JCRC proposed changes. I am not in favor of combining classes 1A and 1B not am I in favor of combining classes 10, 11 & 12. I am in favor of deleting classes 15 & 16 and creating the Special Interest Division.

That being said, I think I sort of see the handwriting on the wall as it were and expect that class 1A & 1B will indeed be combined and that classes 10 & 11 will be combined as well but I feel strongly that class 12 NOT be added into this. As Mark Stephenson and others have pointed out, the class would become too large. Classes 2, 3 & 4 will remain separate (XK120’s, XK140’s & XK150’s) and classes 5, 6 & 7 will remain separate as well (Series I XKE, Series II XKE & Series III XKE) and I think they should be. Keeping in that mindset, I would like to see the XJ6’s keep their three classes (10, 11 & 12) as well. I also like the idea that in the Driven Division, the pre XK’s the 120’s,140’s & 150’s are lumped into one division (class D1) as are the XJ6’s (class D6). Why not be consistent and combine driven classes 2, 3 & 4 into one driven division for all E-types?

In my opinion, the fact that there are more classes in Championship than Driven creates probably the best incentive for someone to move from Driven up to Championship.

I tried to be brief but I think I got a little carried away.

Bill Jenkins
Jaguar Club of Southern New England

"You just have to ask."

oh yeah?? we've asked and we've begged... no luck last year from what his probably one of the largest Jaguar dealer in the US... 1/2 mile from our concours site...

the year before, it took months of begging from another dealership to get some support...

its' been like that every year and yes, many of our members drive new Jaguars purchased from the local dealers... I bought my XKR at our concours 3 years ago!!! but they sell so many JAguars down here that they don't think they need to help.... in other locations many, but here in South FL. you see more Jaguars on the road than hondas... almost...

frustrating...

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

Pascal,
Though I don't believe that entry fees are that big of a deal either, I have three suggestions that would solve the problem;
1. Dealer support
2. Dealer support
3. Dealer support
We have been fortunate to have sponsorship from our local dealers for our previous two concours and have sponsorship for our September event from a brand new dealer, enabling us to not charge a registration fee. It's an easy sale. You just have to ask.
Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Mark

edit your registration and choose auto logon. that places a cookie which means you no longer have to login to post and make sthe sessions longer.

Reporting Display doesn't have to be a requirement. I've done it for our concours before, I think it's only fair to do so. It doesn't hurt and indeed makes the club look better! that should be encouraged.

Driven should remain as it is for those who enjoy getting their driven cars judged but it would be nice to replace Display with a participant choice class which would also include modified cars. This way Champ. and Driven remain about originality.

and yes consolidate all current production models into single classe: S, X, XK8/R, XJs (98 and up).

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

Pascal,

Getting logged off before sending has happened to me on a number of occasions, which would certainly come as no surprise to anyone. Since all my hard work disappears if the logon expires, I've learned to compose in notepad, then cut-and-paste to the message box.

Reporting the display entries is something that I thought of, too, whether or not we give them trophies. If someone was considering joining and they checked out their local club concours, it looks pretty sad if there are only ten or fifteen cars entered. My guess is there are a lot more, but they are all in display.

I think that is something that should seriously be considered for next year, no matter what else we do. Can you add that to the proposals, Dick?

Stevo,

Interesting question about should we have a Driven Division, especially in light of Gregory's comments. I think it boils down to how many tiers of judging do we want, Champion, Driven, Display, or just Champion and Display (People's Choice). Hmmm. That merits further consideration.

To determine how many tiers we have, we should be asking how many types of competitors do we have? It's a spectrum. At one end there are the go-for-broke, detail-to-the-last crevice, competitors. At the other end are the laid back members who aren't campaigning their cars for continental or even local recognition. How many fall somewhere in between?

Suppose we had a People's Choice Division that had all the trappings of the Driven Division -- classes, trophies, and maybe even competition for continental recognition. Continental awards could be based on something like Steve Averill's proposed scoring system that used rankings at various concours. Would that satisfy the urges of the semi-competitive yet give the non-competitive members a place to show?

If we did that, would there be a need for a Driven Division? Stevo may be on to something.

One thing is certain, the People's Choice solution is clean, easy, and uncomplicated. Knowledgeable judges can focus on the people who are really serious in the Champion Division. The rest of the entrants (or members) can experience judging in a less pressure-packed environment.

Steve Houtari brought up an interesting point on the Jag-Lovers' Concours Forum, where a discussion is occurring simultaneously. In the modified division, as it is currently proposed someone could enter the most tasteless abomination of customization, but if it is the best detailed in the class it would win. As someone noted, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," but the "eyes" should have it, and I think tastefulness as adjudged by peers should be a consideration. Having modified be part of a People's Choice Division would handle that concern.

The more I think about this, the more I like it.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

I will make my response very brief: If originality is not important, what are we doing? We already have a class for modified cars; perhaps, rather than watering down the Driven class authenticity requirements, we should reduce the number of deduction points necessary for the modified class.
While some case can be made for a different tire size in class D06, for example, what possible justification can there be for saying that the entrant can have chromed, partially painted Kent wheels? This is INauthenticity, plain and simple. It is a change which has nothing whatever to do with safety or reliability. It makes a sham of the judging and as another writer commented, it makes the Driven class just a detailing exercise. The whole point of this is to promote authenticity and preservation of the Jaguar in its correct configuration, isn't it?

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1987 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.

You want to increase participation? This is simple. Have two TYPES of car shows in one. A JUDGED Championship division (same as now) and a PARTICIPANT voted division (which would be the current Driven division).

1) It would give the two VERY different types of people who attend car shows the chance to particpate in their choice of shows. Generally, the people who participate in people's choice shows are the not the same ones who participate in judged shows...so why not offer BOTH at the same concours?

2) To all the Driven owners who would complain that they want their car judged for national recognition...too bad, move up to Championship (or stay in the people's choice Driven classes).

3) It would REDUCE the effort by the judges (less total cars to judge).

4) It would give the PARTICPANTS something to do...vote for the Driven class winners(concours can be SO boring just sitting around). My wife HATES our concours for that reason, but she likes the people's choice events because she can walk around and critically decide on the best car in the class.

5) Owners of new cars (as well as older cars) who are NOT interested in cleaning their cars to the nth degree would have a venue to display their cars and receive awards without the nit picking that goes on in a judged class.

You guys can talk about reducing the number of classes, increasing the number of classes, etc. 'till your blue in the face, but none of that will make one iota of difference to increase participation. You need to attract the group that does not like judged shows...and everything you are proposing does not do that. I go to lots of British car shows and generally the Jaguar attendance for newer types (not XKs and the like) is equal to or greater than local concours. And these are NOT the same cars. Wouldn't it be nice to get these cars into OUR shows?

Stevo

Wow.. Mark... I think you've beat the record for the longest post in the forum! :-) you must be using the auto logon otherwise your session would have expired... :-) lots of interesting ideas and comments though, that's what we need

a couple of comments/suggestions from a guy who enjoys showing up at a concours, but usually sticks to display...

1)- Preparing a car for concours, even driven, takes time. we all know that but we don't all have the time to do it right. If I don't have time to prep the car, I'd rather not enter than getting a low score and being "beaten" by a very average car that was well detailed. happened to me before... This is why I was registered in C16 at Phoenix hoping I'd have time top prepare but bailed out into display. there was no time to prep the car before the show. Yes I know, it was the same for all of us but I was there to enjoy myself and drive the car... I wasn't going to miss the driving event the day before or get up a 5 in the morning...

btw, maybe if concours were held on sundays, that would give a chance to more members to prep their cars on saturdays. for those of us who drive our Jaguars, it's not always easy to prepare. Friday night, we usually have some kind of pre concours party so that's out and only leave sat. morning where I'd rather relax and talk to friends than detail deatil detail.. obviously not a problem for most C entrants but certainly an issue in D.

2)- I don't think the entry fee is an issue. Maybe even them out a bit more, lower the entry fee for judged and raise display to the same amount. That's an issue with each club depending on how much sponsorship they get to pay for the trophies

3)- Why do we not consider display cars as part of show on the same level as judged classes? why the discrimination?? AFAIK, in most cases display entrant still spend some time prep'ing their car, maybe not to the same level but still can be pround of them. Most people admiring the cars dot' care if they're display or judged. Encouraging display participation would probably help raise the numbers of Jaguars on the field.

I just don't understand why we don't. In most cases after a few times being judged, we know what's not original, what's wrong, etc... so the argument of preserving the heritage and educating owner is off. After a season in Driven and 2nd or 3rd national in 99, I know what's not original onmy car, I know where the flaws are, I know what new problems have creeped up...

Yes, a people choice, or participant choice award for display would be good but also inlcude them in the results. They deserve to be listed with other members.. they deserve the same gift as the other Jaguars on the field...

4)- what woudl happen if by some miracle, we really increase the number of cars in judged classes? in popular classes, like XJS, E-types, we'd end up with maybe 12 or 15 cars in one class... 15 minutes per car... that's 3 to 4 hours to judge that class... I pity the 3 unlucky judges who'd get that one!!!

that's another reason why the focus shouldn't be on expanding the judged cars numbers but expand overall participation in the Concours program and that includes display.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

Hah! Now we are asking the really important questions. I'd be ecstatic at the prospect of more entries. Where are they? There are a few serious competitors going for national points and there are some people like me (and this may describe a number of you) who have their cars judged just to support the system. I certainly don't have scores to brag about.

But first, let me address one of your questions, Daniel

I think membership has gone up quite a bit in the past five years, but concours participation has remained flat. What's keeping everyone from having their car judged? Or an even better question, what's the incentive for people to have their car judged? To be honest, the only one I can come up with is to support the system. Would expanding the number of classes incent people to enter their cars? I have to conclude, no. To use your example of C13, you rightly point out that it is the largest class in terms of production numbers. It would be interesting to see if it's also the largest in terms of member-owners. I would also agree that there is inherent unfairness in a fifteen year old car competing against one just off the showroom floor. Nevertheless, to argue that splitting the class would encourage greater participation, you would have to assume that there is a golden ring the entrants were striving for. A trophy? Recognition? If we are averaging just 1.11 cars per show, everyone who enters is almost guaranteed to place and receive a trophy. No matter what place, that is some incentive, so something more basic and of greater magnitude must be offsetting it.

I'd suggest, based on a few reports from some local club members -- certainly not a scientific sample, that going into a concours knowing that your pride and joy is a 95 point car and knowing that judges are going to point out all the flaws you are already aware of is not particularly appealing. Unfortunately this is the situation you are in if you want to show your daily driver in Champion Division. I don't know of any XJ40 and newer owners who have dedicated their saloons to show status, so really, the entire class is made up of daily drivers. There may be other factors that enter the members decision to enter, but I think this is the single biggest obstacle. Could we go so far as to say that the owners are a bit embarrassed? Well, that might be a stretch, but with cars regularly scoring 99.99 and 100, a 98, even a first place 98, looks kind of paltry by comparison.

Then there are other disincentives.

At most concours, you have to pay extra to have the car judged. So why spend the extra money and all the detailing time to learn what you already knew, that there's a crack in the dash wood, that the seats have a wear spot, that there's a door ding or two in the sides, and that one tire doesn't match. I'm not saying those aren't valid deductions, I'm saying that a scoresheet that accentuates the negative by starting with perfection and pointing out wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong is not going to encourage participation, especially for those who aren't competing seriously.

Then there's the flip side. Under the current system, it's very tedious to properly note all the faults of a lower point car. If anyone has had to judge a 90-point car, they would probably hesitate to show their own 90-point car knowing what they would be subjecting fellow club members to.

I don't know if those are the most common reasons people don't have their cars judged, but they are opinions I've heard and conjecture. That's one reason I think we need a survey. We've all been guessing at why people don't show their cars. Either our guesses are wrong or our solutions are. Whatever it is, there are obviously negatives associated with having one's car judged. Once we identify the negatives, is there anything we can do to overcome them?

I think one answer is that we have to give the entrants something positive to take with them, something valuable in exchange for them taking the time, even if it's just a wash and vacuum, to prep the car.

Here are some incentives (and non-disincentives) that I think have a good chance of improving judged-class participation.

1. Don't charge display-only entrants a lesser amount to participate. That's very minor, but it might be just enough to swing a member to the non-judged side. Create a People's Choice award for display entries. They then have a chance at a trophy and they can't escape the piercing eyes of judges , even if it's just informally by their peers.

2. Many clubs give out trinkets or mementos of the concours. I'm not talking about the freebies donated by sponsors, I'm talking about items paid for by the club. As an alternative to #1, perhaps those should be given only to people who have their cars entered in JCNA classes.

3. Redefine the Concours d'Elegance not so much as a competition, but as ongoing training for Jaguar owners so they can enhance their appreciation of the marque and their cars, and to improve them for safety, appearance, and authenticity. After all, isn't that why most people joined a JCNA club in the first place? To participate in activities and learn about their car? This would align the concours with the vast majority's initial expectations. A comment such as "should be slotted screw at lower rear corner of passenger door" rather than a deduction for an unspecified "incorrect screw" would give an incentive to fix the problem and enter again. A judge's note, "beautiful interior," scrawled in the margin would be like an invitation for the entrant to return. If we could grade on a positive scale rather than, in effect, saying "wrong" dozens of times for dozens of little imperfections, we'd reward entrants for what they've done right.

As it stands right now, entrants are generally bummed about the deductions they receive, even if they agree with the deficiencies. The first thing that jumps out at them is the deductions. But suppose what jumped out was areas where their car did well. The guy may have a shabby interior, but suppose he just had the car painted and received a perfect 100 for that. He knows his interior was crap, but he can be damned proud of the exterior.

4. Re-evaluate Concours Classes biennially following the Challenge Championship year. Classes that average less than 1.5 entries per concours over the two years would be candidates for consolidation with a similar class if the new class would not average over 3 entries per concours. Classes averaging over 3 entries per concours over the previous two years would be split provided some defining characteristic could be identified that would create two classes the smallest of which averaged at least 1 entry per concours for the previous two years. If two classes were consolidated the owners of those models couldn't complain, because it was their lack of participation that caused the consolidation. If a class is split, it will be because the owners of those models were active. This will not only encourage members to show their cars, but it will also encourage them to push other owners of the same class Jaguars to show as well, even if they wouldn't necessarily be winners.

5. Do we have too many trophies? Do people really care about them? They obviously aren't enough to pull in entries for what should be some of the most populous classes. Would people with lesser cars prefer the anonymity of not being recognized as the third best out of a class of three? Would people prefer vying for fewer really impressive trophies vs. everyone winning something far less impressive? This is one I really can't answer. I would guess there are some. Count me among them. I feel I have to issue a caveat every time I tell someone I won first place ... in a class of one.

Would implementing these suggestions make a difference in participation in JCNA classes? I think so. I'm just taking a shot in the dark like everyone else who has tackled this problem. I say "survey." We hardly get any Regional Director ballots back, so distributing it in the JJ probably won't yield much data. However, we do have a network of Chief Judges out there. Perhaps we could send a survey to them and have them administer it at their next meeting, or better yet, at their concours if they haven't held it yet.

Daniel, you are absolutely correct in your assessment of cause and effect. But I think we are looking at a problem so basic that we and the JCRC have to be willing to re-examine the very fundamentals of our competition. We have to find out why people are not competing and be willing to revamp the entire system, from the basic purpose up, not piecemeal as we've been doing. We need to bring the concours experience in line with what the majority of members want it to be. I'm not talking about a lowering of standards -- if anything those need to be raised -- and Dick has addressed that with the last round of changes.

Our current concours system has become what it is because noble people tried to eliminate inequity by attempting to remove subjectivity from the system. Based on complaints about specific shows and regions, it's apparent that's an impossible goal. In the attempt, however, we have created a system that's heavy on detail and light on fun, for both the entrant and the judge.

Members with the trailer queens are always going to show, but if we want to increase participation, we are going to have to attract the average club member with a daily driver. The current system doesn't seem to be doing that.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

P.S. I've included a link to my revised scoresheet below. I'd be interested in any feedback on the layout or methodology.

Mark, I appreciate your answer, and yet I have to make one further comment. If the problem as you see it is that we have too many classes and everyone wins a trophy, then isn't the problem with participation? I think you are more or less dealing with the result and not the cause.

Example: The San Diego Concours. Perhaps 45 cars in attendance. You have two major clubs, LA and SD with a combined cars total of what? 900? 1300? And yet you have 40 ish show up. The problem is not that you have to consolidate classes, the problem is lack of attendance.

I would certainly offer an XJ40 class. But I would ask that some XJ40s actually attend. To me, the C13 and D07 class is a unique problem because it is the only class where 15 year old vehicles are competing with brand new dealer delivery miles vehicles, and I do not think that is fair.

I also think in addition to model years you need to take into account production numbers. By that measurement the D07 and C13 class is the largest class of any in the concours, after all it includes every saloon built for the past 16 years and that is a lot of cars.

Let me pose this question. If attendance increased, would you still be for consolidating classes? Could expanding classes increase attendance? Is it chicken and egg syndrome? I see a lot of cars listed in our club registry, but I dont see them at the show, and I would like to!

But Attendance in general should be the focus here, not on consolidating classes.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Darn it, Bob.

After submitting the last e-mail I reread your original post and realized that I forgot to answer the big question -- how would that create a huge class?

I'm using "huge" comparatively. Currently, 11 of the 17 "normal" classes don't average one entry per concours. The smallest six classes don't have one entry for every two concours.

The JCRC is proposing to combine C10-12 into one class that averages nearly 2 cars per concours. In real numbers that's not big, but it's over double the size of the average class. Based on eight years of data, it's the largest class in JCNA, second largest this year. By comparison, that's huge. Especially when three of the six smallest classes (so far this year) remain untouched.

If we want to do some wholesale consolidation, you won't get any complaints from me, but I can't support C10-12 as long as C3 and 4, C8 and 9, and most of the moderns have such small class participation and remain intact.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Bob,

Don't get me wrong. I agree completely. I think we have w-a-y-y-y-y too many classes. But if we are going to pick C10, 11, and 12, to make into one huge one then I think we should examine all the classes around the size of or smaller than C12 (S3 XJs) for consolidation.

For example, C3 (XK140) and C4 (XK150) are both smaller than C12. Combined, they create a class that's quite a bit smaller than C10-12. The combined production runs of C3-4 is seven years compared to 24. And no one would argue that the difference between 140s and 150s is in any way comparable to that of the entire range of XJs from 1968 through 1992.

How about C8 and C9? While C9 (Small Saloons) has been slightly larger than C12 for the period that we have stats, C8 (Large Saloons) is about two thirds the size. This year, so far, C8-9 combined has had 19 entries, one more than C12 alone. But the proposed C10-12 has had 37 -- almost double. Certainly there are not the similarities between C8-9 as there are in C3-4 and the production runs would cover 20 years, still, that's less than the proposed C10-12. There are more models, to be sure, but many parts are shared across contemporaneous models. The Mark IX and the Mark 1 use many of the same components and across the entire C8-9 range you have the carburetted XK engine. You can't say that for the XJs which begin in the C8-9 era, but extend into the age of computers and complex emissions controls. I think you'd have a hard time arguing that judges who know the Mark VII would have a harder time assessing authenticity on a 420G, than judges who know the Series 1 XJ6 would have handling a Series III XJ6.

Combining C10-11 and leaving C12 separate, yields a class that spans 12 years and is average in size. The S1 and S2 XJ are much more similar to each other than they are to the S3. This one is a no-brainer. The question is do we add two average sized classes together C10-11 and C12 to make a huge class, or do we look at other combinations that make more sense.

Finally, not being considered for consolidation are the moderns which contain the two smallest classes in JCNA. C13 (saloons XJ40 on -- thanks for the correction, Pascal) has been slightly larger than C12 for the period that we have stats, but C17 (XK8/R) and C19 (S/X-type) have had dismal showings. So far this year, there has been an XK8/R judged at less than two of every three concours, on average, and just one S/X-type per three shows. There would be a lot of models in a C13,17,19 class, but in terms of authenticity how many problems are you going to find on cars that new? Yeah, the XJ40 is getting a little long in the tooth, but still, we are talking about production runs of 15 years total compared to the proposed 24 of C10-12. Furthermore, a combined C13,17,19 class would have fewer cars than C10-12 based both on this years shows and on the historical average (taking into account the percentages of the shows only for the years the newer models were shown.)

I think we should re-evaluate the classes every two years. C13,17,19 would be a prime one for re-evaluation. When there are more than 2.5 entries per show, on average, then we can look at a split.

If the goal is to consolidate all of the smallest classes to create more competition at local shows, then let's go for it -- all of it. I'd love to see people have to start earning trophies in head-to-head competition. I totally support combining C10-12, if we, at the same time, combine all the other smaller classes as outlined above. Taken individually, C3, C4, C8, C10, C11, C17, and C19 are much smaller than C12. C9 and C13 are only slightly larger. When combined, C3-4, C8-9, and C13,17,19 are all smaller than a combined C10-12.

If the goal is to keep the number of classes at 30 as it is now, then we should be choosing the smallest, most similar classes to combine, not creating one huge class while much smaller classes remain untouched. The one obvious combination is C10-11.

My second suggestion would be a reworking of the moderns, putting XJ40 and X300 together and moving X308 into a moderns class with XJ8/R and S/X-type. But I don't have the breakdowns for the models entered in those classes to know how equal a split that would be. Failing that, I'd consider either C8-9 based on numbers or C3-4 based on similarity. Any of those would make more sense than a gigantic C10-12.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Hi Mark,
If C10, 11 & 12 were combined this year ,at the great majority of Concours held so far everyone entered would still have received a trophy. Of the 18 Concours that scores are listed for there were only 4 with more than 3 entries in 10, 11, & 12 combined & in 1/3 of them there were no entries at all in C12. At this point in time C12 is averaging 1 car per show. I fail to see that this would create a huge class.
Bob

I'd have to disagree, Daniel. Right now, almost everyone entered in a concours wins a trophy. Sure, an XJ40 is going to have a tough time against a new XJ8, but rarely is the XJ40 owner going to go home empty handed. So far this year, there has only been an average of just over one C13 entry per concours.

It's not just one class. I don't have the numbers for Driven Division, but if you look at my charts for Champion Division, the trend is flat at best. But every concours has a bunch of cars in display.

So really, the big question is, why don't people have their cars judged?

It isn't for lack of trophies, because rarely does a class have more than three cars.

I think clubs make a mistake when they offer an incentive (i.e. lower entry fee) to people who are only going to enter display. That could explain part of it, but not a large part of it.

We could say that members have lost sight of the real purpose of the concours. Perhaps we haven't defined it

I have a theory, but it's only a SWAG (sophisticated wild-a** guess) based on a small amount of feedback. My theory is that our scoring method accentuates the negative by starting with a maximum and nit-picking the entrant's car to death from there. People know their prides and joys have flaws and don't like to be reminded of it everytime they have the car judged.

That's why I've presented to the JCRC for their consideration an alternative scoresheet that accentuates the positive more than the negative.

But my theory could be totally wrong. Perhaps we should create a survey and ask all clubs to have all members complete it. I'd be most interested in the reponses from the people who enter cars in display only since they take time to prepare their car and get it to the show.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

I had one suggestion or comment on classes and class sizes also. I am just fresh of my second concours experience , the lovely San Diego Jaguar club Concours, in my first year of JCNA membership, and my 4th year as a Jaguar owner. I am a newbie, but I am having fun, and gaining experience at every show.

What I have observed so far confuses me as to how the classes are determined. For example, XJS ( C14, D08) is a single class in driven and championship. This encompasses a huge range of cars from 1976 to 1996, roughly 20 years worth of model years.

Additionally, the D07 classes and C13 classes encompass every saloon from 1988 onwards, a span of now 16 model years and several different body styles. So you have essentially brand new XJ8s competing in the same class as a 15 year old XJ6.

Yet there is a separate class for Series 3 E Types, with only 4 model years, and a separate class for Series 1, 2 and 3 XJ6.

What I noticed is that it seems that there is very low participation from the 88-94 owners, and I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that it may be difficult to compete in either D or C against a brand new vehicle. If the purpose of the concours is to encourage participation, a class for these vehicles could be beneficial. I can only speak for myself in saying that I do intend to compete for the next several years, gain experience and do my best to score well, but its common sense to me anyway that a 15 or 10 year old "driven" car is , in general not going to be able to compete with a 1 or 3 year old driven vehicle.

Any comments appreciated, I continue to learn as I go.

John,

Not to shoot myself in the foot, but in the interest of accuracy, the percentage of overall participation in the Champion XJ classes have all been showing a slight decline over the past few years, however this year so far, the trend is up quite a bit. Check out the charts at the link below.

I just wanted to reiterate that I'm all in favor of consolidating classes and I definitely don't want to expand beyond the current 30 (which I think was the original intent of the proposed consolidation). I'm not suggesting we don't drop the total by two (or more) classes. I'd just like to have the smallest similar classes consolidated before looking at creating a huge 34-year-spanning XJ class. As I indicated, I'd even support that if we also consolidate XK140s and XK150s; Lg and Sm Saloons; and XJ40, S/X-type and X300.

I'd be very happy if we set a floor of one entry per concours average and annually reviewed consolidation if a Class dropped below that. I'd agree with splitting classes if the average exceeded a certain threshhold, like 2.5 or 3 on average.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

P.S. Sorry that my numbers lost all their formatting on the forum, they showed up OK in the e-mail version. I have the link to the raw numbers and charts below.

Dick,
First of all, I applaud your efforts and thanks for a job well done.

I agree with most of the proposed changes but I must say, I think that combining class C10, 11, and 12 is a mistake. Yes, it reduces the overall number of classes but only at the expense of creating an overly large class.

I agree with Mark that a much better plan would be to simply combine C10 and 11 and let C12 stand alone. C12 has been growing and will continue to grow. Combining all three series' would only create another problem akin to what we now have with the XJ-S/XJS - namely, a huge class covering a 34 year span of production of the most prolific and popular Jaguars ever made.

I urge you to reconsider.

Kindest regards,
John Testrake
Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis

Pascal: No fear of having any strange aftermarket wheels since the proposed change reads

"Cars are required to have wheels of a type or style originally fitted and/or authorized by the factory for that particular year and model Jaguar. The finish of the wheels may be at the entrant's discretion without penalty."

So in so far as E-types are concerned I think it means aftermarket curly hubs, flat hubs and steel disc wheels, are all OK provided the style is appropriate to the year of car. Six inch Daytons would fit that requirement since they are of the same type and style as the 5" factory wheels and there is no mention of size limitations.

When I first read this I assumed leaving the finish to the entrant's discretion meant no deducts for painted vs. chrome wire wheels or stainless vs. chrome spokes. But I guess it also leaves the door open for bizarre finishes like gold annodized wire wheels.

Regards, John

Mark

Just one correction to your list, C13 is XJ40 and X300/308
C17 is XK8/XKR not x300

merging S1 and S2 XJs (C10/11) is certainly needed but maybe not with C12 (S3 XJ). it would indeed be one large class!

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

Steve,

if there are no originality requirement in Driven then what's the point. it would all become a detailing competition!!!

Re Wheels, do we want tacky aftermarket wheels ? I don't think so. Maybe, just maybe, allowing any JAGUAR wheels in driven would be a good compromise. ex

I also wonder if Daytons should not be specifically listed as acceptable in driven since they are so popular and so close to original wire wheels... as long as they're not coming out of the Dayton low rider line... :-)

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

I have one major disagreement with the proposal. It has nothing to do with the ideas behind the changes, which I think are well-founded. My disagreement has to do with the class consolidations.

Some of you may be shocked to hear that since I'm they guy who would like to consolidate all classes that don't have at least an average of one car per show.

Here is the section in question:

Changes:
a. Combine Classes 1A and 1B (Pre-XK engine Classics) into a single class.
b. Combine Classes 10, 11, and 12 (Series 1, 2 and 3 XJ6 & 12 Saloons 1968-1987 and Non-US Series 3 XJ12 1979-1992) into a single class.
c. Delete Competition Class 15 from Champion Division and move entries to Special Interest Division, Classes 1 and 2.
d. Delete Special Interest Class 16 from Champion Division and move entries to Class 3 of Special Interest Division.

When you look at the numbers, it just doesn't make sense. While agree with a, c, and d, I have to ask why we would take an average-sized class (12) and combine it with two smaller classes (10 and 11), to create what would become the largest class in JCNA? If maintaining the current number of classes is the goal, why not combine the smallest classes, instead?

Here are the numbers from the 19 reported concours this year, so far, and the total from 1995-2003 (excluding 2000 data which was lost).

2003 Total %of Total
C1 Pre-XK 12 279 5.66
C2 XK120 16 379 7.69
C3 XK140 14 306 6.21
C4 XK150 7 305 6.19
C5 S1 E 33 390 7.91
C6 S2 E 18 491 9.96
C7 S3 E 15 413 8.38
C8 Lg Saloons 6 219 4.44
C9 Sm Saloons 13 349 7.08
C10 S1 XJ 10 159 3.23
C11 S2 XJ 9 196 3.98
C12 S3 XJ 18 313 6.35
C13 XJ40 20 317 6.43
C14 XJS 40 622 12.62
C15 Comp moving
C16 Modified moving?
C17 X300 11 125 3.44*
C18 Resto not applicable
C19 S/X-type 6 65 2.91*
*% of cars in the years they were shown.

If you combine C10-12 you end up with a class with a whopping 668 entries. That beats the huge XJS class by 46 entries. If you take a look at 2003 so far, you have a class with 37 cars -- second largest -- just three behind XJS.

The main argument made in favor of combining C10-12 is that The cars are similar. Anyone who has judged the XJs will vehemently dispute that. There might be a few fasteners that are the same, but other than that, there is little if anything from a Series I that is the same as a Series III. Series I and Series II cars a somewhat alike, but the Series III is quite a departure.

What are the smallest classes? Well, C17, C10, C19, and C11. If we are going to combine, why don't we take a look at the smalles classes. If we do that, we have a partial combination of those originally proposed. Combining C10 and C11 makes sense because that would create a class with roughly one car per concours and it falls in the middle of the pack in terms of size. Even more obvious is the combination of C17 and C19. When combined you have a class the size of the S3 XJ class. So far this year, there has been one less car shown in those two classes combined than there has in the S3 XJ classes combined.

One might argue that there aren't any similarities between the S-type, X-type, and X300, but neither are their between a 6-cyl S1 and a V12 S3 XJ, other than the XJ. From a judging standpoint it makes more sense to combine C17 & 19 because since the cars are so new, authenticity is not nearly the issue it is with cars up to 35 years old. My trend analyses (see www.jcca.us and click on the "JCNA Proposes Huge XJ Class" article for more raw data and charts) indicates that it will be over five years before C17 reaches an average size and longer than that for C19.

Now as I said at the outset, I'm all for combining classes. IMHO we have way too many. I would be all for combining C10-12 if we looked at consolidating all the other smaller classes at the same time. For example, combining Lg and Sm Saloons would create a class about the same size as the three XJ classes put together. Combining XK140 and XK150 classes would yield a class a few percentage points larger. Combining XJ40 with C17 and C19 would make a class that is exactly the same size as the combined XJ class for this year. What you would end up with is twelve Champion Classes most of which would have an average of between one and two cars per concours (based on this year's figures). That would be my favorite proposal.

However, if you are only going to cut the number of remaining classes (after the move to special interest) by two, then why not pick the combine the four smallest classes into two average-sized classes rather than create a huge XJ class. I propose that C17 and C19 be combined into a "modern" class, and C10 and C11 be combined into an XJ Series 1 & 2 Class.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Looks pretty good to me. I still would prefer if Driven had NO authenticity requirements, but that is a losing proposition it seems. At least the 'non-authentic' classes are moved to a separate division so that Championship is not muddied by cars that may not have authenticity as a prime goal. The only real issue I have is that if wheel finish and tire sizes are don't cares, then why not make wheels a don't care? Since wheels are a very typical modification for Driven cars, then that would seem to be an acceptable deviation from authenticity. Otherwise, the proposal seems sound to me.

Stevo

Dick: I just read the changes. I think JCNA has managed to come up with a solution that should satisfy most everyone. Congrats on a job well done.

A couple of comments:

1. For driven it states "Wheels- Cars are required to have wheels of a type or style originally fitted and/or authorized by the factory for that particular year and model Jaguar. The finish of the wheels may be at the entrant's discretion without penalty." 15" X 6" wide Daytons are a very popular wheel substitution. I would assume since size is not specifically mentioned that the wider Daytons are acceptable.

2. Also in Driven I assume this now means wheels, tires and radio are the only areas in which non-authenticity is allowed, i.e. there is no list of non-authenticity deductions to be given to the head judge as previously took place in C-16.

Regards, John