XJ220 Class

Here you are 10 altogether

STEVO-- Sanctimonious? Pomposity? Ludicrosity? I can't think of anyone who has exibited these traits more than someone who ignores the teams of engineers, designers, purchasers, coordinators, and others who start with a sheet of paper and design a car(in this case Jaguar) and "tastefully" modifies the same. Did I dtrike a nerve with my post---seems so. I will pass on to those folks your distain.

As to the your comments that people shouldn't be forced to change items I cant remember a single time I have heard of or seen anyone forced to do anything including show up. My guess Stevo is that your use of the "N" word has more to do with my "dumbing down" comments than anything else. You may as well face it there is always going to be authenticy participants and their cars are going to be seen in a different way than others. It is what we do in the other class(s) that causes the problem. Pascal has summed it up well. Your approach has no buffer. It will quickly get out of control and will become a cleaning contest which some claim it already has.

But Stevo please continue to make personal attacks instead of offering a cogent solution.

George Camp

Well, I started reading this particular thread because I kind of like XJ220s and I think we might have one at the Houston Concours this year. As I read I saw the participants kind of went off course there while they went at each other's throats.

Linda mentions "Just for the record, I did not submit the original proposal; that was done by another club member. However, when it appeared to sink into that “pool of oblivion” mentioned at the AGM, our Board of Directors decided to bring it up before the delegates to the AGM just to assure everyone was aware of its’ existence." I guess I am that other club member. As such I have an interest in where this appears to be going.

I have only been in JCNA for about 6-7 years, so I don't have the JCNA history many of you do. Has any other topic generated this much bad will between the members?

Go back and look at the original reason I proposed a modified class in Driven. I thought it might stimulate some added interest in concours and attract entries that would have otherwise skipped the showing their cars in competition. One simple addition to the driven class. No changes to Championship. No proposal to dilute the purity of the marque. No demands to ask those who like their Phillips or Blaupunkt radios to replace them with Sparkomatics (even though my Jensen sounds better than my Frankfurt ever did). I wasn't proposing to flood the field with British Rice Rockets. Immediately those who value authenticity over all else want to reject the proposal. Some outrageous proposals to entirely eliminate Driven entirely are put forth. Some think Peoples Choice (popularity contests) are the answer. Tempers flare. Mud gets slung (I, at least, publically apologized for the mud I slung) and in the end, little of value gets accomplished.

I think it is entirely possible to have concours classes that both reward those who are committed to keeping a car exactly as it left the factory while at the same time recognizing the efforts of those who value the marque while driving their cars with reasonable modifications. And no, I didn’t make that original proposal because I think everybody should win a trophy. Trophy-wise I have done just about everything with my car that I want to. Any future concours I enter, and I plan to enter three in Texas this year, will be primarily for fun. If I win a trophy fine, if not I hope I had a good time. Will the car be prepared. You bet. The headliner is being replaced as I write this. Will I replace my tires, wheels, radiator, radio and the like to enter C6? Don’t keep the light on for me, I value driving over pristine originality.

The tone of these debates alone has probably done more to turn away potential concours participants, and maybe even prospective JCNA members than any proposed change in the concours classes. Frankly, if I was a prospective member looking at these debates I would be turned off.

I would like to ask the JCNA leadership that put together the proposal that is now on the table to please explain why it is not feasible to simply add a modified class to Driven. If there has already been a clear, reasoned post explaining that then please direct me to it. I would also like to know why the proposed changes that were ultimately put forth are considered better than my original proposal.

Regards, John

Pascal said: "what are we going to allow next... gold plated leapers on E-types?
XJS never came with wire wheels either... why allow them with no deduct... then what... allow bolt on wire on modern S-types? maybe we could also allow wire wheel covers...
driven is extremely popular, hundreds of members participate and they don't mind keeping their cars original while tehy know that as drivers they can't go championship... "

You miss the point entirely. We HAVE a division for authenticity, we don't need TWO. How ludicrous is it that the ONLY difference between Championship and Driven is HOW MUCH of the car is judged? Why, let's have another Driven division where we don't judge the interior because it is too much work to clean it/make it right. Then another to exclude the exterior. NO other car marque/club separates cars this way. The PCA (Porsche Club of America) to which I belonged for several years has both a judged class (like our Championship) and one for cars where authenticity is not a requirement, but condition and 'taste' are. These are selected by the participants.

Pascal said: "See my question in the forum about a car with gold plated trim... you want to allow that with no deduct?"

Of course not. We have a Championship division to take car of that.

Pascal siad: "Preserving the heritage is a big part of our club yet this is currently accomplished without excluiding anyone."

No one said it shouldn't be a big part, but does that mean we can't have classes for OTHER Jaguar people who aren't currently (but may be later) interested in how authentic their car is?

Pascal said: "My e-type isn't original yet I accept the fact that I can either...
- go display...
- do driven and take a hit...
- go C16 for a detailing competition...
that's a lot of options if you ask me... certainly not restrictive, exclusive or pompous..."

You state my point quite clearly. Why SHOULD you have to 'accept the fact' that you are non-competitive in Driven? Shouldn't Driven mean just that? What kind of option is it to enter C16...a SINGLE class to hold all cars which are modified? I want to compete with OTHER modified XJS's, not MkII's. Furthermore, if you change just the wheels on your car, you CAN'T enter C16 (not ENOUGH modifications...another idiotic rule). So JCNA has the dubious distinction of FORCING its membes to make MORE mods to their cars to enter C16!!! Isn't that just OPPOSITE of what you state as the intention of JCNA?

Doesn't ANYONE see the logical inconsistencies here?....

Here's a Championship Division for you authenticity nuts. Too lazy (as George would describe it) to clean your engine or boot? We'll give you a DRIVEN division...but we won't let you make any mods (it just means we'll close out eyes to parts of your car). Still complaining (whining as George would put it)? We'll give you a token MODIFIED class (just one)...but you have to make the mods we tell you to make or we won't let you in.

Sorry Pascal, but this IS retrictive, exclusive and pompous.

Stevo

Steve...

Most members accept the fact that if their cars are not authentic they are welcome to compete but will not score high. so what?

what are we going to allow next... gold plated leapers on E-types?
XJS never came with wire wheels either... why allow them with no deduct... then what... allow bolt on wire on modern S-types? maybe we could also allow wire wheel covers...

driven is extremely popular, hundreds of members participate and they don't mind keeping their cars original while tehy know that as drivers they can't go championship...

See my question in the forum about a car with gold plated trim... you want to allow that with no deduct?

Preserving the heritage is a big part of our club yet this is currently accomplished without excluiding anyone.

My e-type isn't original yet I accept the fact that I can either...
- go display...
- do driven and take a hit...
- go C16 for a detailing competition...
that's a lot of options if you ask me... certainly not restrictive, exclusive or pompous...

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

"But do it by turning DRIVEN into a judged division with NO authenticity requirements "

and judge what? detailing? cleaningless? what's the point...

leave driven as it is and encourage a participant choice division for those with modified cars who still want participate.. keep it simple... like pre and post XJS/XJ6 ...

but a lot of members enjoy driven, don't take it away from them by making it a detailing cmpetition...

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

George Camp said: My customers that are truthful will admit that crap on their car was placed there out of ignorance (or PEP BOYS had a sale). What some call personalizing is in a lot of cases just lack of research and laziness. Given the choice of two radios on the shelf who would pick the spark-o-matic over the Phillips?

What a bunch of sanctimonious crap! Your pomposity and ludicrosity is quite unmatched. I make CHANGES to my car because I WANT to, not because of a lack of knowledge of what is authentic and what isn't, or laziness. I try to make tasteful changes, but that is in the eye of the beholder. It is attitudes like yours that drive away potential participants. Give these people a venue to compete...who knows maybe they will someday want to move uo to fully judged competition where authenticity is paramount, but leave them alone until they WANT to make the move up. Don't force them to change their perfectly good Jaguar to please the authenticity Nazis.

Stevo

Mark Stephenson said:....If anyone wants to forget the Modified proposal you have my vote. Eliminate Driven altogether and I'll support that, too. Our charter is to preserve the marque. In that case, just have a Champion Division, judge the whole car,...

Hey, I AGREE with this idea. But do it by turning DRIVEN into a judged division with NO authenticity requirements or better yet, a participant-voted division. Let the authenticity freaks compete in Championship like they've always done, and leave the DRIVEN division for the rest of us who are just interested in showing our nicely prepared (and potentially modified) cars to the rest of the world. A venue for BOTH types of competitors! INCLUSIVE! Maybe someday those who participate in DRIVEN will want to move up to Championship, but let them decide, don't pressure them to do it by automatically making their cars non-competitive because of the changes they've chosen to make.

Stevo

Linda Young said: Do we tell an owner with an immaculate driver, 'you can join but, you have to get rid of the leaper hood ornament and the Dayton wire wheels if you want to show.'

So very true! What a pompous organization JCNA is. "I DON'T WANT TO CHNAGE MY WHEELS", I told the idiot judge when I first competed with my 89 XJS w/Dayton wire wheels back in 1995. The OEM wheels look like crap (MY opinion). I had the best looking/condition XJS on the field (according to everyone who commented on the car, but I didn't even place 3rd in class. Give me a break! How disillusioned was I? Same thing in the next concours later in the year...not even placing. Changing wheels? No frigging way, not in the DRIVEN class!!! You should have seen the smug face of the class winner (same one for both concours) when he didn't win the XJS class at the British Invasion held in Stowe, Vermont, later that same year. 600 PARTICIPANTS (NOT spectators) voted my car best in class, vindicating what I knew was true. Solution to this problem? Get rid of authenticity requirements for DRIVEN class cars. People who care about authenticity can gravitate to Championship, while those who don't can compete in Driven...be INCLUSIVE, something for everyone. Someday, when my car is 25 or 30 years old and no longer a real driver, I will put the OEM wheels back on and move up to Championship, but for now, let me compete in Driven w/o picking apart every little change I've made to enhance my enjoyment of the car.

Stevo

Watch out Mark of you are going to become persona non grata also. I happen to agree with ALL of your comments here. JCNA is the easiest Jaguar club in the world for concours. Having been a member of the German club JAG and both the JEC and JDC I can tell you they broach little compromise.

I think that clubs of any kind are exclusive. The sailing club here has the best ramps and facilities but so you know that you can not have a power boat or modify your sail boat to certain degrees or you will be excluded. What this is in my mind is just an extension of what is happening in our society. We are allowing the "Dumbing down" of anything that certain groups target. If they can't or won't comply with the rules or requirements they scream exclusion (or other words)in an attempt to bring pressure either internally or externally to make us feel BAD. I don't buy it and hope others will suck up the courage to fight.

Where would our cars be without a Champion class? What would drive a Patrick or Bob or Stew to commit to thousands of hours or work or research to produce a car or documents that are an accurate reflection of a set of standards 25 or 30 years old. To extend that arguement if there is not a watch placed on newer cars in 30 years some of the bolt on junk will be assumed to be factory.

Where I agree with the most is the thought they are whiners. My customers that are truthful will admit that crap on their car was placed there out of ignorance (or PEP BOYS had a sale). What some call personalizing is in a lot of cases just lack of research and laziness. Given the choice of two radios on the shelf who would pick the spark-o-matic over the Phillips?

As a final thought if it comes to pass that we have enough classes for everyone to have a plate and a slap on the back for a job half assed done it will only cause the purist to form another club- it always does. Those clubs learn from the past and ARE exclusive to those who want to water down the quality.

Good comments.

George Camp

Hyperbole reigns!

Linda,

Have you ever heard of the Corvette Club? In the Corvette Club, not only is the interior, exterior, engine compartment, and trunk judged, but the underside is judged as well. If you think we aren't inclusive, the Corvette Club judges know where there was overspray from the factory. If you don't have the same overspray on your restored Corvette, you lose points. It's the same for other "factory flaws." If it came that way from the factory, your restoration better have it. Applying that same judging style to Jaguars, cam covers and carb dashpots that you could comb your hair in would pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't win.

Check how the Australian Jaguar Club judges cars. They have a 3' high ramp at their concours. The cars are driven on the ramps and the entire underside is judged with the same attention to detail as the topside.

I would love to have you research a number of marque-specific car clubs and come back and tell me where we rank in terms of toughness of judging. I'd be shocked if the vast majority were not far more strict than us. I'd be interested to know how many other marque-specific clubs have a class that has no basis in authenticity. You talk about feedback. I've received lots of feedback about our judging compared to other marque-clubs, and though I've received an occasional comment that our system is nit-picky, no one to date has said we're tougher than their club.

We draw no lines to keep anyone out. I don't know where you come up with that. Every Jaguar is welcome to be entered, in fact at our concours, begged to be entered, with one exception -- if it's not Jaguar-powered. How much more open can you get?

I hate to say this, but it sounds to me like you are receiving feedback from a bunch of members who don't so much feel intimidated and unwelcome, but are upset because of some deductions that they might receive and who whine because they can't win. It sounds as if your solution is to just keep creating classes until everyone wins. Maybe they'll participate when they can be assured of a trophy, but I won't.

I enter cars every year, and I enter them with no hope of winning if someone, anyone enters my class. Sometimes I get lucky and I'm the only entrant, which makes the trophy meaningless as far as I'm concerned. I enter to support the club and give us a good turnout. These selfish people who will enter only if they can win really need to get their priorities straight.

I've been contributing to the discussion about the classes, scoring, and rules, because I have some strong feelings about certain aspects of it. However, if this childish mentality of everyone having to win a prize or they go home pouting is as pervasive as you make it seem, why bother. Why try to define competition if everyone wins?

Your claim that people feel excluded makes me wonder if the average non-contributing JCNA members, the kind who give you feedback, aren't just a bunch of big cry-babies. Look at it this way, you have a tough-minded person who has had the intestinal fortitude to go out and buy a old Jaguar -- and believe me, anyone who is daring enough to go out and buy an old Jaguar has some reserve of courage. They fix up the car, put in a CD player, perhaps add some other personalized touches, and put the car on the road. Are you telling me that this person is going to feel excluded, feel unwelcome, or even INTIMIDATED? By what??? Some deductions on a score sheet????? Spare me. I don't know who these people are, but they really need to find another hobby. Perhaps knitting or fly-tying. Oh, wait, there's judging there, too.

I'd say if they can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, but I think these folks you refer to really need to just find a quiet place, assume the Lotus position, and chant "ooooommmmmmmm" for a while.

There, how's that for exclusion.

I'm really beginning to think we are trying to be too many things to too many people. We've opened the door and now we can't seem to get it closed again. If anyone wants to forget the Modified proposal you have my vote. Eliminate Driven altogether and I'll support that, too. Our charter is to preserve the marque. In that case, just have a Champion Division, judge the whole car, and anyone who can't handle that pit-sweating, heart-racing pressure-cooker of full competition can be in display.

This is the last comment I'm going to make on the subject because trying to ameliorate people who are intimidated (intimidated!) by deductions on a scoresheet that deals with something as insignificant as a car is not worth all this mental effort. I would not want these people standing with me if I faced with something truly threatening. I'd turn around and they'd all be headed for the tall grass. Besides, I get a lot more enjoyment out of driving Jaguars than I do showing them, and far more from either than talking about the minutiae of how the shows should be run.

I'll let you folks to whom it means a lot more hash this out. (Is that cheering, I hear? :->)

As for Jaguar becoming a "serious threat" to Ferrari's dominance in Formula 1, you must be confusing Jaguar with BMW or Mercedes -- common mistake. Here are the current constructors standings going into the US Grand Prix:

1 Williams-BMW 141
2 Ferrari 137
3 McLaren-Mercedes 120
4 Renault 79
5 BAR-Honda 18
6 Jaguar-Cosworth 17
7 Toyota 14
8 Jordan-Ford 11
9 Sauber-Petronas 9
10 Minardi-Cosworth 0

I would hardly call 17 points in 14 races a threat to anyone except maybe BAR-Honda. With only two races left, we can't even catch Renault with their underpowered engine.

Enough, I say.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

I was offended by your comments re: the JCRC. I know how much work these folks have done over the last few months and a lot of it just on the class restructuring. It is one thing to be sarcastic, a fault or virture I freely admit that I have. It is something else to be just mean and for lack of a better word devisive. I have been guilty of beating a dead horse in my day but never one still in the corall.

For your information your e-mails were shared at once with the JCRC. That is what started the train rolling as we had little understanding of exactly what was being asked as it was disjointed and predanted at the end of the day when most were leaving.

As far as being a self appointed expert I plead guilty as charged. It has taken 30+ years of study and collecting and reading but those cars I am interested in I know (ask around).

Now for the personal attack you want to launch I am just not interested. The thought that you wont be e-mailing me is delightful in thought and will be wonderful in practice. We can meet at dawn with spanner wrenches or we can both WORK and VOLUNTEER to do those things that help JCNA. In my case JCNA has been around longer than I have-don't know about you. It will survive in some form after us both.

Cheer up. The end of October is near.

George Camp

ok Linda... you asked for it... :-)

"Today Jaguar is a top competitor in Trans Am and swiftly becoming a serous threat to Ferrari dominance in F1. "

hmm... are we talking Formula 1 here? there was a glimmer of hope earlier this season but Jaguar is currently lying 6th ... BEHIND Honda... cough cough... yes... honda... it will be years before Jaguar gets there... even Renault who was sharing the back of the grid with JAguar last year has leapedfrogged to 4th place and scored their maiden victory in hungary 2 weeks ago. Yes Renault... makers of the LeCar, Fuego, and.. was it the Alliance.... all barely a notch above Yugos :-)

and I will add that yes... Jaguar is a THE top competitor in Trans Am but unfortunately hardly thks to Jaguar. It took them 4 years tom commit some resource to support Paul Gentilozzi's efforts and develop an race version of the AJV8 engine...

:-)

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

Yes, George, I can judge a 120. IÆve also judged 140Æs and 150Æs. IÆve looked over my share of XKEÆs, Series I, II,& III. I have covered probably at least half of the Driven classes, too. Just last weekend I judged C-14; thatÆs XJS, just so you donÆt have to look it up. I started judging when judges were required to look at the whole car, not just a component.

I recall sending you a copy of the Driven Modified proposal but, I donÆt know that you received it as I never heard from you. Just for the record, I did not submit the original proposal; that was done by another club member. However, when it appeared to sink into that ôpool of oblivionö mentioned at the AGM, our Board of Directors decided to bring it up before the delegates to the AGM just to assure everyone was aware of itsÆ existence.

Distribution list? What distribution list? IÆve never heard of it. Even if I am not on it, shouldnÆt common courtesy dictate that the original sponsor of the proposal be on the list? It has not happened.

If you wish to take a general statement of concern and make it into a personal affront, thatÆs fine. People like you usually do. Anyone reading these forums with any regularity has seen you repeatedly vent your sarcastic, attack dog attitude toward anyone who might differ with your arrogant, self appointed authority.

The floor is yours George. I have come to expect your sneering, snarling retorts but donÆt look for any e-mails from me nor will I dignify your next virulent verbal assault with a reply.

Have a nice day, George

L D Young

Hi Bob,
I just recently saw yourpost; sorry for the slow response.

The ôinclusive & exclusiveö I refer to is from feedback I get from those who rarely show or will not show at all because they feel intimidated and unwelcome. Two recent proposals make me think we will only reinforce this perception.

First the proposal for the addition of the third division that will remove factory race prep from Championship. C-types, D-types, XKSS, Lister, etc; these are the cars that put Jaguar in automotive history. They are no doubt the most thoroughly documented cars Jaguar ever built. Today Jaguar is a top competitor in Trans Am and swiftly becoming a serous threat to Ferrari dominance in F1. The Sept. 15th Autoweek has 6 pages dedicated to Jaguar racing automobiles. Jaguar is behind the new ôSelect Editionö pre-owned racing E-types. More and more of them are coming to the market as vintage racing is big business.

Were I fortunate enough to own one of these magnificent machines, I would not appreciate being relegated to a step-child class that is not even considered eligible for JCNA Championship. It is obvious that Jaguar is very interested in keeping the spirit of JaguarsÆ racing heritage alive. Should we not be doing the same? A car of this type rarely shows up unannounced at a concours so we do have the time and certainly the documentation available to make sure these types of entries, along with every other entry, is treated with respect. Tell me, what do you think will draw more attention at a show; an immaculate 1997 XJ6 or a race hardy C or D Type?

The second problematic area is the lack of a good Driven Modified class. I know of several owners right in our area who will not show because they have modified their cars with things they like or because it makes the car more drivable. Dealers make tons of money adding options the factory never put on the car. To throw out the bone of optional wheel finish or a different radio will elicit not much more than a sarcastic laugh as these owners continue to skip our shows. These owners have no illusions of winning a JCNA National Championship, so why are we being so discriminatory toward them? These are people who DRIVE their cars, they rally, slalom and participate in HPDE days and other driving events a club may offer. Maybe we would see a rise in the participation of the older cars if they didnÆt feel like they were going to be chastised because they changed something on the car.

So there you have it. Are we going to be inclusive and make every Jaguar welcome; or do we say 'your race car is not important enough for Championship judging?' Do we tell an owner with an immaculate driver, 'you can join but, you have to get rid of the leaper hood ornament and the Dayton wire wheels if you want to show.'

As you know, I have been doing this ôcar thingö for a lot of years. I have never encountered a club that deliberately attempts to force conformity on car owners, nor one that excludes certain models from competing. If Jaguar built it, we should have a place on a level playing field for it. The JCNA Vision Statement says: ôThe Jaguar Clubs of North America is the friendliest and the best association of Jaguar enthusiasts fulfilling the needs and interests of the members.ö To fulfill that vision I believe we should be drawing circles to take people in, not drawing lines to keep them out.

I hope this will clarify where I stand on being an inclusive organization and thanks a lot for your interest in what my thoughts are.

L D Young

Whats wrong with competing in special interest class? Thats what an XJ220 is, special interest. You are unlikely to see even 1 at a show, let alone a field of them, so making them a separate class , to me, is totally unjustifiable.

Id place them in the same class as C type, D Type and lightweight competition E Types. Isnt that where they would be placed now?

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

IMHO, the XJ220 should be welcomed with a designated class. Last time I heard, there were a few dozen of them in the USA. Hope there is a solution soon.

Ginger, JCOF
1971 E-Type 1971 E-Type

PS Hey, if training is available, I will gladly be one of the first to sign up to judge them ;-)

If all of us are lucky, we will have such problems at our sanctioned concours. Attending Jaguars should have the option to be judged in Championship or Driven, not Display or even Special Interest. Hey, I will gladly be one of the first to volunteer for training to judge them ;-)

IMHO, the XJ220 should be welcomed with a designated place alongside the other competing Jaguars. Hope there is a solution soon.

(Now, where do I sign up for that judging class? hmmm....I'm gonna need some time with an example...)

Ginger
JCOF
1971 E-Type

If all of us are lucky, we will have such problems at our sanctioned concours. Attending Jaguars should have the option to be judged in Championship or Driven, not Display or even Special Interest. Hey, I will gladly be one of the first to volunteer for training to judge them ;-)

IMHO, the XJ220 should be welcomed with a designated place alongside the other competing Jaguars. Hope there is a solution soon.

(Now, where do I sign up for that judging class? hmmm....I'm gonna need some time with an example...)

Ginger
JCOF

Hi Linda, When you say, "is JCNA going to be exclusive or inclusive" the implication is someone or something is being excluded. What or who?
Bob

As a member of the JCRC I resent your statement. We are working to solve the problems presented to us and yes we do go too far sometimes but that is because if we don't some sharpshooter like yourself will grind the process to a halt answering what some consider inane questions. As far as your comments that there are very few people who can judge a 120 that is just false. While I am at it though can you judge a 120? Why not? You can certainly study up and train and then you will be qualified. I have watched your post and even went so far as ask clarification on some of your ideas and that led to the class restructuring that is up for review. That means that at least 50% of the JCRCs work this year was driven by your motion.

So let's agree to stop taking shots at fellow club members unless there is a good reason. I don,t remember seeing your email on the dist. list from the JCRC so I am not sure you are aware of all issues we are looking at. You can be sure that when we have a product you will get a shot at it. How about email me and tell me privately what is bugging you. Hell there are a lot of things that bug me in JCNA but I am trying to change them in the system and contribute while I am at it. Look for your email.

George Camp

In reply to Linda Young's message, we in JANE have had several older Jaguars at recent shows. The JCSNE show this year which I attended and judged at had a 1947 MK IV DHC. This year, JANE's Concours had a MK V DHC (Jerry Robinson, JANE). We have qualified judges in both clubs that have owned and/or restored older Jaguars going back to pre war and SS/SS100 models. We would place those cars in their proper JCNA class and judge them accordingly. I've not personally seen older cars classified as C16 or even a C18 (Preservation class) entry here in the Northeast.

Linda's point is well taken....the cars must be properly classified.

Harry Parkinson
Chief Judge, JANE
1948 MK IV DHC, 3.5 litre
1947 MK IV Saloon, 3.5 litre

Steve,
There are very few people around anymore who can judge an XK120 or an SS100 for orginality. Does this mean if one shows up at a concours and there is no one who knows the car it goes into C-16? I don't think so!
I am truly concerned that the JCRC is spending too much time "what ifing" and nit picking every possible scenairo they are losing sight of the big picture. The question is once again, are we "inclusive" or "exclusive"?

L D Young

I was going to ask what the color was called. I have a Morocco Red XJ12, I have a thing for the dark maroons, wine colors, black cherry etc. Maybe second to BRG in what color I think a Jag *should* be.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

The color is Monza Red is is really stunning up close. Here's a (bit blurry) picture of it compared to that of my 1971 E-Type which is Regency Red.

The color is Monza Red and is really stunning up close. The picture hardly does it justice. Here's a comparison of the color against that of my car.

And I thought my XJ12 looked good in a dark reddish metallic. That is the best looking 220 I have ever laid eyes on!

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Stew,
Thank you. That cleared it up for me for the time being. I'm sure you'll come up with a solution. I'm just glad I get to see a 220 once in a while!!

Automatic Subscribers,

When reading my first post on the XJ220Æs (after posting) I realized that I had a major dyslexia attack û got C15 and C16 mixed up. I immediately deleted and reposted a corrected response, but realized all automatic subscribers received my first dyslexic missive. Sorry for the mix up.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

Ginger and Pascal:

The proper place for XJ220Æs has been debated for the last month by the JCRC. These cars are unique and that makes our job difficult. For now, IÆd say enter the XJ220Æs in C15 even though they are not race cars. Because so few Judges are familiar with the car, originality is difficult to access, since originality is not judged in C15; this is one reason to place them there. If they were placed in C16, the entrant would have to document a minimum of 35 points of non original items and present the proper form when registering.

ThereÆs simply is no exact fit for the XJ220Æs in the present system, unless we create a new class, and because of the relative few numbers at any Concours, a new class would result in an automatic trophy û not that I think thereÆs anything wrong with that.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

Ginger and Pascal,
The JCRC has been debating this for a month. The 220 is very unique which makes our decision difficult. We hope to resolve the issue and present our recommendations soon. For now, I'd say enter it in C16, even though it is not a race car. Since so few judges are familiar with the car, originality should not be judged, which is a charactoristic of this class. Otherwise, to be eligible for C15, one would have to list 35 points of non originality and submit the proper form documenting the non-original items totalling 35 points at registration - this isn't right.

The 220's just don't fit anywhere nicely, the closest fit is C16.
Thanks
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

C15 is for race cars, the 220 is a road car unless it's one of race modified specimens...

I'd say it goes in C16

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR