Judging?!?

Mike and the rest of the Jaguar world,
I want people to understand that this is my home club and I am proud of what they accomplished in the first year. I cannot imagine what it took to get it off the ground. Well one thing besides money and cars was volunteers, I thank them for taking there time to judge.

Mike actually I did recieve a much higher score at the Cincy show but it was due in fact that I spent well over $2500 and some 50 hours in labor for a 1 point, which I think is great turn around.

Again I am sorry if people think I started a "war", I didnt mean too. IF you read my last line in my opening forum page it shall explain that I have questions and I am young and looking for answers. Hope to see many of you at our Cincinnati Concours next year, its a work in progress as is everything in life, especially our cars!!!GOOD LUCK

Scott Fitzgerald
Greenville, OH
67 XKE OTC
88 XJS Coupe

Scott,

Your concern over consistancy of judging is a real issue. A club that is based upon volunteerism, requires judges to volunteer their time and expertise. Without these volunteers we wouldn't have a show or scores to worry about. In any "sport" there are judging controversies, particularly in one that is based upon subjectivity.

As one of the prior messages indicates.. the real issue is not consistent judging, rather enthusiastic volunteering. I would also add the fact that participants need to keep the competition in perspective. Shows judged by volunteers will have some variation in the particular scores, however overall, the idea is that with three judges on a team and a number of shows, this will average itself out over time.

As you are so concerned about this particular point in your interior score, I would ask, how did the overall score you received at this show compare to others? ie. with overall perspective was it better or worse?

I will close by emphasizing.. we are a club made up of volunteers centered around our Jaguar cars with the aim of having fun. While there is always room for improvement in all of life's endevears, on balance we should ask did we enjoy the day?

I do not engage the judges in any conversation due to that rule. So basically if I get a set of judges like at the last show I went to, the extent of the conversation was "hi, okay, ill open the doors, thanks have a nice day"

This next time around I am going to start by asking the judges to please explain all deductions over .1 I think that is not unfair, and well within my rights and doesnt qualify as extraneous conversation. Am I right?

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Maybe we should look at a clarification of the rules. If you check the test and rule book here is what you find.

28. Extraneous conversation between the Judge and the Entrant:
a) Is encouraged to visit with the Judge.
b) Entrants must not engage in extraneous conversation with Judges during judging.
c) Is acceptable when pointing out incorrect or defective items on competitorÆs cars.
Ch 3, Page 14, Rule K-6

And that rule states:

6. Extraneous Conversation Between the Judge and the Entrant
However well intended, Entrants must not engage in extraneous conversation with Judges during judging; such conversation slows the judging process. Some Entrants may see conversation with the Judge as an opportunity to "sell" the Jaguar or to excuse the appearance of an item....

The key word is "extraneous." By my dictionary it means "not forming an essential or proper part" and "not pertinent; irrelevant."

I think a strict interpretation of that rule would pretty much muzzle judges. Commenting on the general condition of the car is certainly not essential. Telling the entrant about cosmetic deductions is not specified anywhere, and hence would be extraneous. The only conversation specifically required between entrant and judge is regarding authenticity deductions. So rather than considering them rude or stand-offish, I would have to conclude that mute judges are following the rules to the letter. The "nice guys" who are telling you what they are doing as they do it are violating the rules by giving the entrant the opportunity to "sell" or argue. At least that's the way I read it. I don't agree with it, though. As an entrant, I would like to know what the judges see and what they deduct for.

If we consider relaxing the rule, the question becomes, how often has being "chatty" created a problem with an entrant? I can think of a few where it could be problematic, but for the vast majority it wouldn't. Do any of you long-timers recall when the rule was enacted and how prevalent the problem was prior to that?

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

P.S. A couple of the suggestions mentioned here, including accentuating the positive about an entry and noting the source of deductions, are included in proposed scoresheets I worked up, linked below. Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Like Doug I am also new to competition and JCNA this year. I have only attended two events thus far this year, but from what I have seen so far, there is quite a bit of variance in judging. At one event, judges were very forthcoming in telling me what deductions I was being hit on, at the other, I had nothing but "please open the doors". One event I score very well and I pretty much just did a wash and wax. The other I meticulously prepared for and scored significantly lower ( which drove me nuts!).

One deduction I wish someone has explained to me was a tick for dirty headliner. I spent half an hour examining my headliner trying to figure out what the judge saw to take off until I guessed that maybe the felt trim opposite the door seals is maybe considered part of the headliner, and yes, that was dirty in spots from the rubber. If it had been explained to me, It would have saved me a lot of confusion.

I think I may be doing one more event this year if I have the time. I have enjoyed the competition and the beautiful cars and I wish more people came out to these shows. Sadly, my wife got a teeny bit disillusioned at the last concours because a fresh later model sedan off the dealer floor took 1st, and she basically feels our 10 year old car cant compete with new models. But thats another issue! :)

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Thanks Patrick,

Maybe next year, I need to work on a few things for next years concours's. I just hope we can make this more enjoyable for years and years to come. I am only 25 and hope to bring young and old blood into this club, cuz we need it.

When and where is your concours held at? Love to come to Texas for a few days.

Scott Fitzgerald
Greenville,OH
67 XKE OTC
88 XJS Coupe

Scott: Come on down to Houston...we'll treat you right!

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

I've been showing for a few years and have had good judging and bad. I just returned from the Tulsa club's concours on Sep 13 and they did a top job of selecting and briefing the judges. 1.The judges were very polite and complimentary and 2.They took the time to go over areas of my car which they had noticed and even shared tips on improving them. We should always be friendly and pleasant to the entrant. A little recognition and praise goes a long way for the guy with a car that has been well prepared.

Those of us who have restored a car know of the work and money that was invested. I think the best judges are those who have prepared and shown their own car for a few years and have campaigned it at several shows. Often, the poorer judging seems to come from those who don't campaign their own cars. In my humble opinion and with all respect, someone may be very knowledgable about the cars, but if he has never shown his own car he is simply not the best choice for a JCNA judge.

Lastly, by some definitions, there may very well be no such thing as a 100 point car. Perfection is not attainable in our fallen world, but spotlessly clean, correct and authentic and an *as it left the factory* presentation is. A car at that level is 100 points by the JCNA definition. It's right there in the rule book. Some judges who don't agree feel as if they must keep going until they find something or they're not doing it right. That's just a big negative for the participant.

Campaigning a car is such an enjoyable experience for me and I'll continue as long as I'm able to do it. Most of my best friends in the car hobby were met on the show field. We can preserve the authenticity and integrity of the marque and enjoy ourselves along the way if we be nice to each other, ensure that all of our judges are qualified, and calibrate all of our yard sticks so we're all looking for the same things.

Kindest regards to all,
John Testrake
Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis
76 XJ12L, 84 XJ6

Thanks for everyone commenting on this subject that obvisouly needs to be re-conditioned. I agree with many people recomendations that judges should enteract with the entrant about his/her deductions. Bob I want to add that Mike S wasnt the Head Judge but was one of the three judges on my car. I emailed Mike 2 weeks ago and spoke with him on the matter.

Regardless to say I spoke with a fellow member this past weekend at a show. Something needs to be set in stone about how judges go about there process. I also agree with the gentlemen who spoke about the judges being friendly and not like another gentlemens experience where they said 3 words to him.

Lets all remember this is for fun but it seems some people like to step it up a notch higher. I just hope something can be done by next season. I already have a list of concours NOT to attend due to the fact they are un-professional and basicly rude. I want to travel to far away places to show my car, but not if I am going to get a bad response.

Scott Fitzgerald
Greenville,OH
67 XKE OTC

I feel that because the theme of the "Guide" is based on "deductions", and not "awards", that this may give the wrong primary impression to some judges.....to walk up and start nipping away at things. I think the mindset of the judge should be one that the entrant is there for enjoyment and competition....in that order. Why would anyone want to go to an event, to knowingly get beaten up for mistakes, or forgetting to get a few dog hairs off the carpet. The judge should try to make the entrant comfortable by starting off with rewarding comments about the car, by looking at the positives first, not the negatives. This will help set the tone for the judging excercise. My wife and I have recently attended a concours and that is how it went. It started out with the positives, which made us feel great about our work. It set a tone of pleasure to be there. Then we had a few authenticity mistakes and a few other negatives. That was ok. We still had the fresh positives on our mind. It made the experience more fun and rewarding. That is why we keep coming back.

"Inconsistency" is a tough one. Our car has had a range of deductions for the same untouched area in several concours in past judging years. One year to the next had a large variation of deducts on the same untouched areas. This is probably the toughest one to solve, as every judge is a different person with different observations. I think we'll have to live with this aspect of the experience as it is human nature. Some people are more critical than others. I agree that some things should sometimes be "un-noticed".

I also agree with others that the judges should explain other deductions with additional notes on the scoresheets so that later the entrant can work on what's wrong. It's frustrating to fix the wrong thing after a show, only to loose points again for the same thing.

Rich

Unlike many of you, I'm new to the concours trail, in this my first season I took in the four events here in the Northwest Region. My experience was overwhelmingly positive, I felt encouraged not only by my fellow competitors, but by all the judges as well. My scores were both reasonably consistent, and I thought fair. I do agree that a brief review of deductions between entrant and judges would be a good addition to the system, and eliminate potential confusion when the score sheets are received. On two occasions the judges took it upon themselves to do this with me, but not in the other two. I'd rather know immediately, not to argue, but to have the knowledge I need to continue improving my car. If an entrant should take it upon himself to dispute the decisions, the judges could pass him on to the head judge and continue with their work. If there's a downside to this, I don't see it.

PS. Stew, your score sheets did arrive very quickly, thanks for being so prompt.

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1987 Series III XJ6 VDP

Gregory,
I hope it wasn't your JOCO scoresheet that you just got today. I posted these on the 4th, or the Thursday after our Saturday Concours, Monday being Labor Day down here.

JCRC has been studying a proposal for a new score sheet that, amoung other changes, has a place for comments, but I prefer that each team inform the entrant verbally of the top three defects observed.

I took a 2 point hit this year up north for "poor rubber" that I, nor anyone else, could find. When I confronted the Chief Judge about the poor judging, he informed me that they rarely get trailered cars to their Concours - wish they would've but that on their registration form - I would've stayed home.

I intend to make this thread mandatory reading for all JOCO judges. Its a great thread - I hope nobody starts ranting and raving.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

I have both shown my cars and judged for many years now. I wholeheartedly agree that judges should give the entrant some indication of the problems found, and I make that my practice. It is very frustrating to receive the score sheet (as I did today) some weeks after the show, and to find a deduction for (lack of) "cleanliness" in an area that I felt was antiseptically clean. It would take only a few minutes of the judges' time, either immediately after judging the car, or later in the day to give the entrant some welcome "feedback". I have found invariably that treating the entrant as I want to be treated, is very welcome. If I am not able to speak to the entrant, I always write some indication beside the deduction to guide him/her to the problem. Surely it is not too much to ask that every judge work out a similar process? The goal is to encourage, not *dis-courage* participation. But generally speaking, I have found my cars to be judged very fairly, although I agree that some are unable to leave a score sheet without a deduction. Where this is done, the "almost perfect" car loses to one which has had a more lenient judge, possibly in another geographical area.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1987 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8 auto

There have been a few times where I rec'd my scoresheets to find the the judges have kindly made a few brief notes in the margins to indicate the nature of the defects...and this is very much appreciated.

I have also had scoresheets without a single notation. I know my car pretty well and can often surmise what the deduction was all about. But, more than a few times I've been left scratching my head. Very frustrating.

Some judges verbally discuss with me what they are seeing....a nice touch. Some say nary a word, no doubt gun-shy about starting an altercation...they never know who they are dealing with. One time I was aghast when three judges never said a *single word* to me other than "please open the doors" and then, a few minutes later, walked away without so much as a nod of the head......I thought they stepped aside to discuss something and, next thing I know....they had disappeared. I waited 15 minutes and then shut the doors. Oh well. I'm not complaining. I have been happy with the judging in the overwhelming majority of instances.

Anyhow....The scoresheets should have room for notations and the judges should be required to make some brief notes on the nature of the deduction.

Cheers
Doug Dwyer

There is also a humorous side to this competition. When we had just finished our 64 I attended a show and a judge took off for wrinkles in a brand new door panel. He did mark on the sheet which door but I couldn't find the wrinkle and neither did the judges at the other 3 shows that we entered that year . The following year at the same show, the same judge walks up to judge the interior, and just like a cowboy I 'cut him off at the pass' by saying, " thanks for pointing out the door panel wrinkle last year, it was very easy to fix!"
Bob

Bob: Yes, when I got into the final "serious" restoration of my E-type several years ago, I saw the level that I would have to attain to be competitive. Had no choice; arguments of how the car left the factory would have fallen on deaf ears.

Again, I think common courtesy dictates that any and all deductions be shown to the entrant so that he can correct the problem for the next show. I'll be damned if I'm going to travel 1,000 miles round trip to attend a show and not know what I was hit on.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

You should have received your judging sheets within two weeks by JCNA rules. Our Concours was 9-6 and the sheets were in the mail on 9-8.
Bob

Daniel

it's getting a lot of additional attention but the problem is very simple... LACK OF DEDICATED VOLUNTEERS!

every year, we have the problem... not enough judges, not enough guys willing to learn and spend a lot of time in the process...

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Hi Patrick, You raise the question about can there be a 100 point car.
If we were judging against absolute perfection, which is what is happening with JCNA judging, probably not. The big problem with judging" as intended to leave the factory " is what is the standard for bad fit, runs in the paint on the bottom side of bonnet, crayon marks on the bulkhead etc. Once you start allowing for factory defects where will it end and who would decide what is allowable? So we're back to perfection. I've judged at a lot of Concours over the years and I've seen a few cars that were a lot better then anything that Jaguar, or anyone else for that matter, ever dreamed of building. 100 points, maybe, but at least 101-102 compared to what ran down the assembly line!
Bob

How can you really protest when you don't even see the score sheet until 5 or 6 weeks after the event. The two events I have attended this year, the judges did not always explain deductions, although one event was better than the other. 90% of the time I had no idea what they took off for until those 6 weeks later when I got my score sheet in the mail.

I also noted that the judges who did my car at one event were definitely not qualified on my model, because they asked me several originality questions which anyone familiar with the model would not have gotten wrong, like "did those picnic tables come stock on your XJ12 sir?"

Seems to me judge training should get some additional attention.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

I agree with Bob. I have run into a couple of judges who will go out of their way to find a deduction. One even proclaimed that there is no such thing as a 100 point car. One had to go into my tool roll to find a tiny spec of something that he called "corrosion" on my adjustable wrench...that's pretty insane.

Folks like these do nothing but discredit their club, and they will soon find that entrants from out of town will steer clear of that club next year. I have also found that these sorts of judges have never restored a car to 100 point condition, and therefore don't have a clue as to how much work is involved, not only to attain that level, but the time and expense to bring a car to a show.

I'm not saying that anyone should get a free ride, but that it's this sort of judging that ruins the fun and camaraderie of the whole event. I've often found it very frustrating for a judge to walk away and not say what you're getting deducted for. They write the deduction somewhere else, and an entrant never knows about it until that evening at the awards banquet.

I think the EVERY deduction should be initialed, not just those for non-authenticity, otherwise an entrant won't know what he's being knocked for. The entrant has a right to protest any questionable deduction with the chief judge.

Anyway Scott, welcome to C5 judging / competition!!

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Hi Scott, As you belong to a brand new club hosting their first Concours, problems like this can arise. I can't recall if Mike S was going to be Chief Judge or Concours Chairman but he has a lot of Concours experience and is a very fair person. Let Mike know what happened, better yet show him the car, and he'll talk to the judge. It's a shame, but there are a few people out there who feel it's their God ordained duty to find something wrong with a car whether it's there or not! A good Chief Judge will soon discover who these people are and have a nice friendly discussion on what is and is not a defect and the appropriate deduct . If this doesn't work, and it usually does, the solution is simple, you don't invite him/her to judge again.
We all know that no judging system is perfect, but we all do the best we can!
Bob Jag of Mi.