Concours Absurdities and Other Ideas

Pascal,
Better yet,just put me on a skateboard, tie it to the back of both cars, and let em' rip!

Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

too static... better while driving... we'll put you in a well muffled car on 3 lane highway with an E on each side:-)

reminds of an incident last year at Ginger's club concours, she was donig the mechanicals with one of our club's member. I had fired up the engine just because I like the sound and upon Ginger's encouragemnet, she was right in front of the car... I rev'ed it up a couple of times... sounded nice on that street with the stones and a wall not far behind. Problem is that I didn't know that the 2nd mechanical judge was bent over checking the license plate light... her face must have been just inches from the tailpipe... I still feel bad about it... :-) so mechanical juging can be risky business!

Pascal Gademer

Ginger and Pascal,
Ginger, I didn't know that you had made mods to your exhaust system. Guess I struck a nerve, eh? Here's the deal. The next time we all get together, I will stand between the rear of your cars, inhale some fumes and make the judgement. E-Type V-12's in stereo! I doesn't get any better than that. BTW, you guys bring the beer. Glad to hear from you Ginger. Hope everything is well.

Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

well.... your plate should read COPYCAT since your new set up is very close to mine and we both know you were just tired of being drown whenever we'd drive side by side :-)

good to see you back :-)

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2

Doug, you bring up some good points:

When first organized, JCRC looked into what other car clubs were doing to determine if another approach would better suit JCNA's needs. I have a coworker who has a very original '57 Corvette and he provided me with a lot of information on the Corvette approach to judging although he is not a judge. Some of the highlights:

The Corvette Club:

1. Pays all expenses to send top judges around the country.
2. It's not unusual to take three days to judge a car, each day all cars are judged on a particular aspect, one day they are all inspected from underneath while on a lift.
3. The entree fee was $150.00 for a regional show (NW Region).
4. The rule book is huge.
5. Judges pay about $100.00 for their classes - there are different degrees of accomplishement.
6. All models are documented (heck they only have to worry about one model per year) and judged against the same documented standard.

Incidently, my coworker competed in one National Event and vowed he'd never do it again. He thought their system was flawed and liked what I told him about the JCNA system - go figure.

After reviewing the procedures used by other clubs, the JCRC felt that it would be better to fix what we had rather than attempt to copy another system.

With the work load given us, we simply didn't have the resources to investigate every clubs system, just a few. Porsche and Mustang also come to mind.

Regarding the 99.5 Jaguar as compared to a 99.5 Porsche - what's the point - they are different cars judged by different rules by different people. Any attempt at comparison is folly. The JCNA system is comparitively simple and short, perhaps to encourage driving, or to add a little fun to the process. No one every described the Corvette system as fun.

If we were to judge the underside of Jaguars, or just the suspension, the venue would have to change to places with lifts, like garages, rather than the prestigious settings that most clubs now enjoy. Incidently, most of the clubs researched did not call their event a Concours d' Elegance.

Pascal: I've noticed that Sports Car Market has tempered their criticism of the JCNA system after I wrote them about 2 years ago to defend JCNA's right to implement any system it's membership was comfortable with, and suggested they attend one of my judge's training sessions before they expressed their ignorance in their publication one more time.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Mike said, "Too add to the fun factor, we could have an award for best sounding car! I don't think anyone would be able to compete with your V12!"

Um, I'll take that challenge....

Ginger
1971 E-Type

Doug

in almost every issue of Sports car MArket, they take a jab at our scoring system in the auction revues whenever a seller quoted a 99.9xx score.

I must say that I can't understand why suspensions are not judged... they are a critical part of the car and at least origniality should be judged in C classes. Why are my low profile tires not acceptable but my billet alloy shocks and poly bushings are...

Pascal Gademer

I almost hate to even bring this up but as long as we are digging deep into the existing JCNA Concours rules and philosophies I may as well throw this onto the fire as well......

It appears to me (and I could well be wrong) that JCNA is the only major sanctioning organization which doesn't judge suspension and underbody. Not that I'm an expert, but I think if we look at Corvette, T-Bird, Porsche, etc we'll see that those outfits judge much more of their cars than we do ours.....often times with such picayune attention to details (like date codes on a radiator cap type of thing) it's almost silly.

However, the only reason I mention this is that, over the years, I've had a few conversations with "other marque" owners who have half-jokingly/half-seriously pointed out that earning, lt's say, 99.5 points with a Jag is much easier....and carries less significance.....than the same achievment made with other cars/organizations, thus making it a less prestigious and/or meaningful accomplishment. That hurt a little.....but I can't really disagree, either. My own Jag could be a wrecked rust-bucket below-the-knees and it would never be refelected on a scoresheet.

One of my co-workers likes ...and shows...old VW's. I'm not sure what club he's with or how the governing body works, but when we compare scoring notes he laughs at me (good naturedly, of course) because his Beetle is judged top-to-bottom, they look for .... and deduct for....reproduction parts (versus original), look at the suspension, wheel stampings, etc.

(Note:My own observation is that E-types and XK's are judged with a far more serious eye than other models...perhaps because more exacting details about these cars are known and documented.)

Anyhow, I am not necessarily advocating a major change in the JCNA philosophy on these things. But, I thought it might be interesting and important to share what at least a few outsiders think about the existing system. My remarks today are based only a small sampling of conversations with other-marque enthusisasts. But, if this sampling is representative of the general consensus...well...perhaps it merits some consideration.

Cheers
Doug Dwyer

Lets face it original or not all cars in JCNA are judged on condition also. Driven classes are not judged in the engine compartment, or in the boot, their score is assesed with a maximum possible score of ten.
Championship Classes have their engine bays, and boots judged, as well as the passenger compartment and exterior, maximum score is out of a possible 100.
Class 16 has currently only one arena, Championship Class. Regardless of authenticity, these cars are judged merely on condition, many of these cars are driven, mine when I was allowed to compete in this class was driven probably harder than your average Jaguar, and it is quite a job competing at events such as Nationals, where for some unfortunate reason the DRIVEN EVENTS are held prior to the Concours, I am sure more people may participate if slalom was after the concours, as many pople do not wish to dirty their cars before the Concours, cars can get very dirty during rallies, and accidents have happened during Rallies, and occasionally in Slalom Competition too.
A Driven Class for Class 16 I believe is a good idea , even though I am not allowed to enter "Silver" in that arena.
Many years ago now one "very knowledgeable" competitor insisted that in fact CH 16 was a driven class, I vote strongly in favour of a driver class 16. Personally condition of a car is more important in my mind, than having an original but run down looking vehicle.

Mike,
A few years back, several of us thought that including a simple engine "start and idle" along with the Mechanical Checks would be a good idea
and a more realistic examination of something truly "Mechanical".

The opposition was not wide spread but, unfortunately, the AGM delegates voted it down. I still believe such a check has merit but the scoring
gets a little bit complicated. I'd be glad to send you what had been proposed in case you'd like to have a go at it again.

Dick Cavicke
Chairman JCRC

Mike,

See if you can talk to some Aussies. I think they have to drive the cars up on a ramp for a thorough inspection. Not that we should do that, but it does show what can be done.

What you are suggesting is a completely different approach to judging, I like that. Try this one....

When I presented my revised scoresheet to the JCRC for evaluation last year (which we held off on because Dick Cavicke understandably wanted to concentrate on the Judges' Qualifications part), I suggested that because the most knowledgeable authenticity judges are usually the ones who have that model entered, there is generally a very small pool of knowledge remaining to draw from, particularly in the smaller concours. I know that in our concours, for some classes, we have a hard time finding one knowledgeable person who doesn't have a car entered, much less three. Does it make sense, then, to require three people to all have authenticity knowledge about the model they are judging? That's the way it is now. The bonnet/boot judge has to know what's correct for his area and the exterior and interior judges have to know what's correct for their areas.

Wouldn't it make far more sense to alter the score sheets so that the most knowledgeable judge handles the authenticity for the entire car, one judge handles the cosmetic aspects of the bonnet and boot, and the third handles the cosmetic aspects of the interior and exterior? (In driven class, the exterior judge would handle authenticity inside and out.)

You folks in the huge clubs may have so many experts on each model (who don't have cars entered in that class) that you have no shortage, but I think that the majority of the clubs will agree that it's tough to find enough knowledgeable judges.

A lot of people are saying that we should focus more on authenticity and less on cosmetics -- what better way to do that than to have the top S3 XJ6 expert in the club judge all the authenticity of the S3 XJ6es?

I've made up sample scoresheets which incorporate that and a number of other ideas including an end to the ticky-tacky, tenth-here-tenth-there, watch-your-car-be-picked-to-pieces scoring system, which will be more enjoyable for judges and entrants alike. If anyone wants to see them, let me know and I'll post a brief (OK, it's me, maybe not so brief) explanation of how it works and a link to the score sheets.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

as much as I'd love to see more mechanical, let's face it... it will never pass!!!!

I would also hope that all those restored cars are mechanically sound so there would be little point anyway.

but it would be interesting to know how other clubs handle it.

Pascal Gademer

Pascal,
I am pleased that you agree that there should be more mechanical checks. Yes, it would take a bit more time to accomplish a true mechanical test, but, if well organized, could be done with a minimal amout of disruption. At the Columbia consours last Saturday, teams were sent out to check the mechanicals before judging the other areas of the cars. It worked out well. With good organization, a true driven mechaniical test could be accomplished in no more than five minutes per car. And it would add to the fun of the event by giving the participants an opportunity to parade thier cars among thier peers. Too add to the fun factor, we could have an award for best sounding car! I don't think anyone would be able to compete with your V12! I am waiting to hear from a Rolls club member about thier mechanical evaluation. I am seriously considering making a proposal to the BOD for a true mechanical test. Your input would be most appreciated.

Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Well, to be specific, the other classes are beauty AND authenticity contests. C16 is only a beauty contest because there are no authenticity dedcutions.

(See, a short post.)

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Lisa,
Yes, I agree with Mark's comment about fresh Ideas. Never let the fact that you are a new member give you cause for hesitation about expressing your opinion. This is my third year as a JCNA member and I still consider myself a "newby". JCNA needs fresh blood and new ideas just like any successful organization. I realize that the discussion can get a bit abrasive at times, but in the end it is beneficial. Thanks for piping in!
Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Mark,
Whoa!! Class C16 is a beauty contest and the other classes are not? Give me a break!
Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

I can't believe the way this thread as gone! From Linda's concern of the lack of a modified class in driven to a proposal to drop C. 16 and place it in a display class! Why are we going to drop 16, apparently because authenticity is not judged. Do you suppose these cars could be in a display class parked next to the cars that USED to be in C 15? What's that, we're going to start judging authenticity in C 15? I don't know how ,as most of these cars were updated from day one, but I guess we could send Terry Larson and George Camp around the country to point out deducts!
We were there, as many of you were, when C 16 was formed and it was always intended to be in the championship class with the entire car judged and not a class for those running from the normal classes because of minor authenticity problems. I can't imagine dropping this class that has been successful for a number of years.
We do not have a formal display class in Michigan and have never felt the need to do so, however, if a club feels the need for something besides the normal JCNA classes, why not set up a entrants choice class and give club trophies as most clubs did before the JCNA driven class was set up?
Bob Stevenson

Linda,

Anyone who can go on as long as I do deserves an award of some sort. Do you have any fingers left?

I agree with you, though, that we should at least examine the feasibility of revamping the entire system. My C16 suggestions was an attempt to work within the existing framework, but changing the framework opens up a lot of exciting possibilities.

I know we can't all be on the JCRC. By the same token we can't all be rewriting the entire rule book. Perhaps the JCRC would consider setting up subcommittees for each part of the rules. They could set forth some parameters and we could each tackle our sections, eliciting comment from the membership as we go. I hate to load any more work on Pascal, but if the JCRC likes the idea, perhaps he could set up forums for each of the subcommittees. That would be our main form of communication and the entire membership would have input. We'd have to see how unwieldy that would be, but the comments here are coming from at most a couple dozen people.)

The idea of revamping the entire system? Wow, it boggles the mind.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

To Stevo, Thanks for bringing this topic up. We in JCTI attempted to present a proposal at the AGM. Once refered to committee we feared it might disapear never to be heard from again. You have made sure that will not happen. It is obvious from the posts that C-16 is broken but there are lots of ideas on how to fix it. No doubt JCRC members are paying close attention and will come up with a recomendation in the near future that will better address this class.

To All: JCNA like any business or organization must change with the times or be left in the dust. Our rules are not cast in stone and must keep up with the changing face of the membership and Jaguar Cars. We have a lot more models than we used to, a lot of the older marques have (sadly)disapeared. These posts have given us lots of ideas, good, bad and ugly, but I believe the consensus is there that it is time for some change. Over the years some of these ideas have been put forth before, such as combining classes when there are insufficient numbers of cars or going to a "gold, silver, bronze" award system. The screaming against these suggestions was thunderous but here it is again. Perhaps these are ideas who's time has come. Our 100 point system has long been foder for jokes among car buffs so maybe it is time to get real.

On trophies: Don't be to quick to dismiss the value of trophies. While some of us who have done this a long time are not particulary enamored of winning more trophies it makes me happy to see someone leave a show thrilled to peices with their "cheesy" third place trophy and clutching a list of items they plan to correct before the next show. This tells me a very good judge(s) was on this car. The participant leaves with a better understanding of what it takes to make their car better and hopefully, a greater appreciation of the heritage of Jaguar.

To George: I will send you a copy of the origional proposal and the editorial. I apologize for the delay; we went to Oklahoma City for their show and slalom (both of which were GREAT), plus I don't read the fourms every day so I am a little slow.

It was suggested that I post the original proposal on the web site but I am not going to do that. While I think any JCNA member should be able to request and receive a copy of any proposal, I believe the respective committees should post proposals when they decide they have one ready for general consideration. As I recall that is why these committees were established; to facilitate gathering information, throughly discussing all the options and formulating something to present to the general membership. I think we have all pretty well thrashed this topic from one end to the other and the JCRC should have plenty to work with. I would suggest however, that there be some timetable for when the committee will post something for the membership to look at or at the very least a periodic up date on progress. Communication is the key otherwise we end up with exactly what happened at the AGM.

Now that we have this topic out in the open, I hope someone will do the same for the second topic that JCTI brought up at the AGM; a better way of granting new club charters. The current system can be very detrimental to existing clubs.

Gosh! my rant was almost as long as Marks'! Do I get a 2nd place trophy for that? (just kidding)

L D Young
Jaguar Club of Tulsa

Lisa,

I'd like to take issue with a couple comments you made. First and foremost, "I'm way too new to dive into these deep waters." New people sometimes have the best ideas because they have new ways of thinking. They haven't been straightjacketed by "the system."

I don't know if you are referring to my post under the heading "Eliminate C16?" or an earlier one, but in that one I was trying to come up with an explanation of why so many people don't have their cars judged. I even began my statement with the comment, "I have a theory that may be totally off the wall, but here goes."

JAGSL is a good-sized club with a good-sized concours and S1 E-types are one of the biggest classes. If there is a class that has a large number of entrants, that's a prime candidate. By the same token, the Champ S2 XJ class is one that is rarely filled, so in your case, you can be competitive (in Champ trophy terms) and have a daily driver. As long as you meet the minimum score, you are guaranteed a trophy. When I take first in a class where I'm the only car, it's impossible for me to brag about winning when I was the only car. By the same token, there are few concours where a S1 E-type can be a daily driver and win the class.

The more important question is, how many cars at your concours were display only? There is no way around it. If you are third in a three-car class, you finished last. Worse yet, if 90% of the judged entrants at the concours received a trophy and you were one of the 10% who didn't wouldn't you feel just a little let down? That's my theory on why people don't want to enter the judged classes, that and watching their car be picked apart by sharp-eyed judges, especially when they haven't had time to attack it with Q-tips and toothbrushes.

So, if we set it up so there was no more display class, replaced by a voted or People's Choice class which would include the modified and personalized cars, and the three "prettiest" Jaguars would win People's Choice awards based on a totally subjective evaluation of their looks alone, don't you think that would be a good idea?

That's what I'm proposing.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

At the very least this discussion has prompted many to suggest ways to change the current system JCNA administers its concours program. I just hope that whatever changes are made to the current system that we don’t lose sight of the original goal, which I believe was: “How to increase concours participation”.

I don’t think a wholesale reduction in the number of classes will increase participation. I think we all agree there is probably some opportunity to reduce the current number of classes in both Driven and Championship based on historical entry data.

It is probably not reasonable to try to emulate the gold-silver-bronze format favored by the Corvette folks. Corvettes compete against Corvettes, not the entire Chevrolet line of cars. In a JCNA concours anything Jaguar made or powered is likely to show up on the field. I would concede that it is probably possible, though not likely to happen, to judge all e-types as one class but it is probably no more logical to judge an SS100 against an X-type than it is to judge a C-5 Corvette against a 1932 Chevrolet touring car. A minimum number of classes are necessary to allow for meaningful judging of vehicles.

Ranking cars by popular vote instead of the current point system has the potential to create more problems that it cures. The current system of grading cars against a paper standard allows us to compare cars, based on their point scores, against cars that have never competed on the same field. Under this system a car that is the sole entrant in a class is still competing with every other car entered in that class during the entire year. Replacing the current point system with a popular vote system removes that ability to compare and thus removes the ability to use local concours scores to determine national championships. If Driven is reduced to a popular vote contest there is no meaningful way to determine driven national champions.

Popular votes may also tend to favor the local entries since the greatest single percentage of entries usually is fielded by the host club. One sure way to kill participation is to establish a system that might be perceived as unfair or favors one group over another.

Let’s look at the current Concours system.

What works/Pros:

1. Established system that everyone understands, changes require little retraining.

2. Point system allows for national ranking because local entrants are being judged against objective criteria used at all JCNA concours.

3. Sufficient number of classes to accommodate all participants from 100 point restorations, to daily drivers, to truly special or unique vehicles.

What doesn’t work/Cons:

1. Too many classes, difficult and/or expensive to administer.

2. Perception that everybody gets a trophy, which cheapens the award.

3. Perception that some classes, such as C16, don’t fit within JCNA’s concours philosophy.

I think George Camp summed it up when he stated in an earlier post: “We did not exactly inherit a sound system but it is workable and we will try to help fix it”. If the current system is workable and can be fixed why make wholesale changes?

Regards, John

Mike,

That was actually only part of my proposal -- the part I was receiving the most support for. It's evolved based on comments from others and as I considered it further, so let me rephrase the entire thing.

My proposal calls for the elimination of C16, not as a class, but as a judged class. With no authenticity deductions, C16 is a beauty contest. Some may not like the phraseology, but I think we can all agree on the point. If it's going to be a beauty contest, there's no need for judges with any particular areas of expertise, so let's not waste time with a tenth here and a couple tenths there, let's just look at the cars and pick the prettiest one. Now hold that thought will I take a short detour to discuss the non-judged display class.

Currently, there are a huge number of cars are entered in the display class at concours across the country. I'd estimate about a third. Why? Survey says ... well, there haven't been any, but the general feedback I've received is that people just aren't into the competitiveness. It's not worth the effort to detail a car to within an inch of its life even if it did mean winning a trophy. I have a theory that may be totally off the wall, but here goes. At something approaching half the concours, everyone wins a trophy. That means that at the awards banquet, if you are third in a three car class, it's just been announced that you had the worst car out there. But that's not the worst thing that can happen. If you happen to be at one of those concours were all but a handful people are guaranteed trophies, and you're one of the handful? Later, on the website, your score is there for everyone to see. If you enter display class you don't have to worry about having your low score being announced to the crowd. You don't have to worry about being the only one who competed and didn't win a trophy. You don't have to worry about someone seeing your score on the Internet and thinking how trashed your car had to be to get an 87.

So how do we get those people out of the display class? Eliminate the option.

Whoa! How will that work? Won't these people stay home rather than be judged? Probably, but they won't be judged, they will be voted. Any car not entered in one of the judged classes has only one option left. I am proposing a People's Choice award. The people doing the choosing would be the entrants. Ballots would be included in the goodie bag. This would be a total beauty contest and we all know beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The entrants behold all the cars and pick their favorite. He with the most votes wins. We have a multi-marque British Car show in town that does something very similar and it works beautifully. There is no display-only option. The People's Choice class would be the new home of C16.

I orginally suggested only one People's Choice Award, but considering the number of cars entered and because you would like to continue expanding your dinnerware collection, a good argument could be made for a first, second, and third place award. Since most people who would enter PC class would do so because they don't have or care to take the time to detail their car to concours standards, chances are that those of you who would have prepped your cars to the standards of C16 would be the top competitors.

Most concours charge lower entry fees for cars in display class on the rationale that they don't have to pay for trophies. With this proposal, that rationale is removed. That would remove any economic disincentive to having your car judged. If a former display entrant felt he had a even a slim shot at one of the People's Choice Awards, he might take a little extra time to prepare the car, improving the overall quality of the show. Entrants who were not tapped as judges would feel more a part of the show and perhaps it would encourage them to judge in the future. The number of trophies required would be about the same.

I don't see a down side to this proposal other than clubs would have to print ballots and someone would have to count them.

I lumped a bunch of other suggestions into my initial proposal, but having zeroed in on your C16 objection, I realize that this can stand alone. The other ideas I had can be proposed independently and can stand or fall on their own merit.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

To eliminate class C16 would be a huge disservice to the membership. Has anyone bothered to look at the results from Pheonix? Assuming my counts are correct, there were 79 cars judged and there were 6 entrants in class C16, second only to class C05 with 7. Percentage wise that is a very good representation. Give these folks a break. They have chosen to make modifications to improve thier cars at thier discretion. And many of them are wonderful examples. All of this discussion about eliminating and combining classes is BS and will only discourage participation. I'll be the first to admit that I get a kick out of receiving the "tin" at our concours. That 12 piece setting would look great on my diningroom table!

Mike Fulton

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

What about my point of having the entire Driven division a participant's choice competition? Let's encourage MORE people to come out and participate...both in the competition and VOTING for the competition. Let the judges select the Championship class winners and the people select the Driven division winners. Wouldn't EVERYONE be happy with this arrangement? Putting it another way...what's the downside?

Stevo

Mark,
You may consider your recommendation to dump Class 16 as submitted.
Just where to put it and whether it should qualify in the same manner it did in the past is not that clear.
JCRC is attempting to confront the issue at this time.

Reghards,
Dick Cavicke, Chairman, JCRC

No answers here. I just think the whole judging system has gotten too complex and fragmented. What turns people off...be it Champ or Driven classes...is being hit for the tiniest and most absurd infractions. A piece of lint in the carpet, a tiny spot on the chrome, etc. But this is what happens with a 100.000 point system. Instead, the cars should achieve either a Bronze, Silver, or Gold status, similar to what Corvettes do. Peoples' Choice, Judges' Choice, Best of Show, Best Red Car...whatever... can all remain at local levels. Remove the angst and frustration between having a 99.95 car and a 99.99 car, and you'll then see a lot more participants.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Stevo, et. al.

You're bringing tears to my eyes. Tears of joy. There is a group of people who actually want to reduce the number of classes?

Does anyone like the minimalist approach that I suggested, where there are three really nice Championship trophies, three almost as nice Driven trophies, and a Judges or Peoples Choice trophy for all non-judged entrants? Or, have I gone totally off the deep end?

C16 would have to go because it would be incompatible with the limited number of trophies. No authenticity deductions would give it an unfair advantage. Next, I'd like to see some consolidation of the classes, starting with the ones that don't have enough cars to have even one entry per show on average. But that's for another proposal. To keep things simple, I'd keep the existing class structure (sans C16), judging format, and scoring system. The overall scores would be used to determine the three trophy winners in each division; the classes would be used for the annual JCNA awards. But, at the local shows, there would only be seven trophies awarded.

One of the details to be ironed out would be do we award more trophies at the Challenge Championships or just go with seven really, really big ones? Perhaps that's the one concours where we award trophies for each of the classes. It would make it special and perhaps attract more participation.

Mike,

Regarding the modified-driven class, you make some good points. The Costin-bodied Lister should be entered in the competition class but for the mods. You are correct about the special-bodied cars. How many of them are there? Perhaps we are best to conclude that we can't be everything to everyone.

This is not without precedent. There are a handful of cars that have no racing history but that have been adapted for the slalom and are no longer street legal. At the last AGM, the question of trying to redefine classes to include them, either in modified or racing, was addressed. After a lot of discussion it was decided that we really couldn't fit them anywhere and to create a class for such a small number of cars was not feasible.

I really think that's were we stand with the special-bodied cars. If you attended the Challenge Championship, you couldn't miss Dennis Eynon's modified XK120 FHC. There are pics in the CC galleries. He didn't even enter it in C16, and was happier to receive the Judge's Choice award.

Perhaps there is another option. Suppose we have both a Judges choice and a People's choice award. I know, that would take us to eight, total, but that's it. Eight, max. It is still a lot better than what we have now.

All concours would replace the display option with a class called ... I don't know ... voted class? People's Choice Class? JCNA would urge the elimination of display-only cars at a sanctioned concours. Any entry fee differential between voted and judged would be discouraged, because every car would now be eligible for a trophy.

The Judges' Choice Award would be defined to recognize one car of special or historical interest, with preference given to a car that doesn't align with the judged classes, however, the Judges' Choice winner could come from a judged class or the voted class. A perfect example of a potential winner in this class would be the SS90 prototype restored by Terry Larson for Christian Jenny. Our concours was a few weeks before the car was scheduled to be shipped to Switzerland, and we had the honor of having it displayed. Because Terry was not the owner, the car was not eligible to be judged, but it would have been a shoe-in for the Judges' Choice as I have it defined. The People's Choice Award would be the almost-no-rules beauty contest.

The SS90 prototype would have undoubtedly won the People's Choice Trophy, too. So do we award both trophies to the same car or do we stipulate that the Judges' Choice trophy would be the more prestigious of the two and that if the Judges' Choice winner also won the People's Choice voting, that the People's Choice award would go to the second highest vote getter?

Pros:

1. Clubs, especially smaller ones, could buy a few really memorable trophies and still save money.

2. Clubs would not have to scramble to get extra trophies for last minute entrants or carry over extras from year to year, because seven or eight will be awarded every year.

3. Easily implimented. It preserves the existing class system and the judging processes.

4. No entry fee discount for display cars will provide no economic disincentive to enter the judged classes which should boost judged class participation.

5. If only the top six cars recognized for excellence, the owners of the lesser cars are more comfortable in their anonymity. Perhaps this would encourage them to have their car judged. When almost everyone receives a trophy, third in class is nothing to brag about. I'd argue that in some cases it's almost an embarrassment. Not winning anything would be a real slap.

5. Entrants who are not judges will feel like they are more a part of the event by voting for their favorite for the People's Choice.

Cons:

1. Only seven or eight people would go home with a trophy.

What do you think? Too radical?

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Mike,

I should not have been so hasty. My objection is to the 'non-authentic' portion of C16 as you described (i.e., wide tires, custom stereo, etc.), not the TRUE special interest as you pointed out. That's why the driven division should be the place for personalized cars and they should be voted on by the participants. Leave the judging to the Championship division.

Stevo

While I am right with you on improving the quality of concours competition, let me say that your argument against C16 doesn't really ring true. First of all, let me say that there is generally too much gamesmanship in concours competition. To an extent this is inevitable. But C16 shouldn't be abused by showing an ordinary car with wide tires, or someone's driver with a custom sound system. C16 should be reserved for exactly what it's name implies: Special Interest cars. Let me give you a few examples of cars that wouldn't be well served if C16 was removed:

1) Costin Lister Jaguar: http://www.jcna.com/library/news/jcna0050.html To begin with, I doubt there are more than a dozen people in the US who are even remotely capable of judging it's "authenticity". Further, like most race cars, it's modifications through the years are part of it's history. As it sits today, I could pick out two dozen items that have changed since the day it was delivered to Briggs Cunningham. It never spent a day on the road or track in it's "factory" configuration.

2) Lowey 140. In 1956, Raymond Lowey sent an XK 140 to Italy for a complete rebody. It's a very strange looking car: http://www.jcna.com/gallery/new.php?Vref=JCNA&Vfnum=110&Vthread=0

If this was shown at a JCNA show, should it compete in driven? Or against dead stock 140's?

3) My own personal obsession is a reproduction of the 1963 Jaguar Le Mans Lightweight, almost done after four years of effort. Know how many parts are in common between a Lightweight and a standard E-Type? We can name them: the tail lights, a couple of switches, the windshield. That's a pretty short list. If I was generous enough to show it, which class would you suggest, if C16 is unavailable?

My suggestion would be that C16 be retained, but reserved for the very best special interest cars. Entry in C16 would have to be approved by the club prior to the event, and the judges would have the right and obligation to exclude average cars that were just using it as a back door to championship competition.

Mike Frank
JTC-NJ

Since I was the one who started the ‘Absurdities’ thread, I’ll respond to some of the postings. This won’t be a point-for-point treatise, but instead some counter comments and a proposal with supporting ‘pros’ (and maybe a ‘con’ or two).

1) Personally, I’m not in favor of a C16 class since the score is rather meaningless. BUT if you must have a class for non-authentic cars, then shouldn’t it LOGICALLY be in the DRIVEN division?! Putting it in the Championship division is absurd for sure.

2) The premise for creating a driven class for modified cars was NOT about creating yet one more class to award more trophies, but rather making a class in which more people are competitive. It’s one thing to not win a trophy, but it is really demoralizing when you’ve lost before you drive on the field because you’ve chosen to personalize your car.

3) The knock against C16 as being ‘just a cleaning contest’ is rather disingenuous. ALL Championship classes are cleaning contests. Oh sure, you get the occasional non-authentic deduction, but not very often (and usually those get fixed by the following season). The only discriminator is cleaning (and cleaning, and cleaning, and cleaning). That’s one of the reasons many do not want to compete in the Championship division.

Now for my proposal:

1) Eliminate C16…it doesn’t belong in the Championship division.

2) Reduce the number of Championship classes…if 6- and 12-cylinder early, mid and late XJ-S’s can all compete in the same class, why can’t the same be true for the E-types and for the XJ6’s? These are obvious consolidations, maybe there are others?

3) Make the Driven division a ‘popular’ vote contest, selected not by judges but by the participants, both Driven and Championship. Championship participants may tend to vote for cars that are more authentic, while the Driven participants may not care as much (effectively balancing each other out).

PROS (in no particular order):

1) It reduces the number of judges required, meaning that the judging teams SHOULD be easier to assemble AND more competent to boot.

2) It increases the depth in the classes making for more interesting competition at those concours where entry is light.

3) It provides TWO types of car shows…one for traditionalists who like to have their cars judged for originality and one for those who like the ‘popular’ choice type of events (something for everyone).

4) It gives participants SOMETHING TO DO!…sitting around gets pretty tiresome, voting for Driven class winners would engage the participants.

5) You wouldn’t have to worry about people ‘trailering’ cars to the Driven division competition (it wouldn’t matter).

6) You wouldn’t need a ‘non-authentic class’ since anyone could compete in the popular choice classes with any personalization they desired.

CONS:

1) There would be no regional or national awards for the Driven division (if you want national recognition, step up to the judged division).

Stevo

Mark makes some good points here.

We need to remember what the Concours program is all about. It is not about getting trophies. It is not about being able to say 99.99 point car (often conveneniently not mentioning the year) in a for sale ad. It's not a detailing competition, and it shouldn't be a aftermarket part show.

It is about displaying Jaguar's heritage, sharing our passion for these cars, exposing others to their beauties hopefully turning them into Jagadicts as well.

Maybe, more classes, more rules are not the solution.

Buying 48 Competition Trophies and 30 Driven trophies is a financial burden for clubs. consolidating classes would be welcome by the clubs and at least getting a tgrophy would be mean something!

At the same time, encouraging participation by popular vote or even better Judges choice would be great. Judges choice in Classic Sports Cars, classic Saloons, Modern Sports Cars ( XJS and up), Modern Saloons (XJ6 and up) woudl make sense. Judges would be able to incorporate some originality or at least qulity of the modifications into the process which Popular vote may not. Red Convertible are often the public's favorite!

Right now, those with cars that are not fully prepared to concours level, even in Driven, are excluded from the process. Display class entrants are treated like third class citizens. they often are not even reported in the results even though there is no reason not too. After all they did prepare their cars, take the time to show them, and to the visitors and passerbys, are just as important.

Mark, I know that you were out of space in Phoenix, but the way Display cars were relegated into that parking near the entrance was exactly what I'm talking about.

Maybe it's time to think out of the box. Combine some classes (all XKs, all Es, all S1-2-3 XJ6s etc), introduce a limited number of new Judges Choice Classes (top place only, no 2nd, 3rd, etc...) for display, modified cars or those who don't necessarily enter in judged classes for whatever reason...

More mechanical checks would be great but hard and impractical to put together. Short of having a lot of space nearby, there isn't much that can be done.

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

Mike:
A very good philosophical topic for discussion. It is my understanding that most restorers and collectors take the opposiste view. Demand determines suppy. I heard Jay Leno state this once on TV. He encourages people to drive their collector cars because he truly believes that as parts break, demand is created that encourages manufactureres to remake these parts. IMHO, this concept, when carried over to concours events, justifies the taking of all non-original or missing deductions found, as this too creates demand. I used to be reluctant to take some of these deductions but , after hearing Jay, believe its really all part of a good judges responsibility. Got to go repaint yellow strips on my brake hoses.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

From the perspective of a new member:
One issue that is not readily apparent in this discussion is the preservation of a supply base of original Jaguar parts for yet-to-be restored cars that will be shown in Championship Division.
Some of these models have a very limited availability of certain original Jaguar parts, and driving around with them to the point where those parts are being consumed could be viewed in some light as being irresponsible. Some of these rare parts are just not being manufactured because it is not lucrative.
If one chooses to drive, really drive, these cars, would encouraging the use of certain replacement parts in order to preserve parts that would be placed on an "Endangered Species List" be worthwhile considering when developing a new Driven class?
What will a restorer be faced with 10 or 20 years from now?
I am willing to swap parts for competition, however, it is laborius.

Mike Lewis
Mark 10

George,
I had no idea there were disqualifications. Rules are rules. What kind of amazes me is that, for all the events I have entered, I have never been asked to show proof of ownership or my JCNA card. Isn't there something in the rulebook pertaining to those issues? And if we are slack in those areas, where else are we missing the boat? Enough ranting. We are looking forward to seein y'all in Columbia next week.

Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Mike your account is accurate I remember that show. What you did not say, or perhaps know, was that two cars were disqualified that day. Both in driven. One who had trailored and was caught- asked- and lied. The other was a XJ6 who was on the field hours ahead of time. One of the judges thought something was amiss and asked to see the engine. He refused until the CJ told him to. Quess what Cheby engine. Point is that the rules can be inforced but you have to have someone to do it who is not a whimp!

George Camp

I wrote up a long response to the arguments made and was preparing to send it when my PC locked up. It was probably just as well. If you want to see the bulk of my arguments, I made them on the General Discussion Forum under the heading "Driven Class." For some reason it shows up way down the list with the February threads.

Anyway, with the resignation that comes with losing a couple hours worth of writing, I have to look at this whole situation and ask myself, what's the big deal? Someone made the point that the competition is not fun if there's not a modified driven class. What's not fun is listening to people rant about how important this class is. What's not fun is trying to placate the squeakiest wheels and in the process create a rule and class system that's so complex it's borderline unmanageable.

If anything convinces me that the last thing I want to do is get involved with concours rules it's listening to people whine that something about a car show isn't fair, like the Earth is going to spin off it's axis if it isn't fixed RIGHT NOW. Think about soldiers who didn't come home from Iraq. Think of Karen Miller dying at age 56 or 57 and talk to me about fairness.

Get real. Do you think people go to concours for the cheesy trophies? News flash! They don't. (I'd have put that in all caps but I know it's rude.) This wrangling such as this doesn't make it's way to the club level members, but the attitude it engenders certainly does and it is driving away a lot of entrants who would otherwise hose down their cars run a vacuum over the carpets and participate. Their lives are complicated enough. Enjoying the old car hobby is supposed to be an escape. If our past concours are any indication, somewhere between ten and twenty percent are seriously competing. For the rest it's a chance to clean their cars up and take them out to a public place and talk to each other and the general public. Chatting with passersby means far more to me than a cheap trophy. Look around at your next concours and see who is having the most fun. I'll bet you'll find it's the guy with one of the rattiest cars who wouldn't have a chance to win anything if it wasn't for the fact that we have so many classes and so few cars.

There are only two ways anyone is going to get anything approaching fairness in the classes -- either subdivide them so minutely that there is only one car per class and give everyone first place trophies, or forget about classes altogether and award prizes for the whole concours.... Hmmmm. You know, I kind of like that. Award three prizes for championship and three for driven for the entire show. Base it on scores.

Can class 18 -- it's unenforcable. Bag Class 16 -- it's a beauty contest, nothing more. Take all the display cars and all the modified cars who don't want to be judged in the real classes and make it a true beauty contest. No rules other than Jaguar-powered. Give judges, entrants, or both ballots and have them vote for their favorite. Then award a seventh trophy to the car that gets the most votes -- People or Judges Choice Award.

I'd love to see that. Then a trophy would actually mean something. I'd never win anything ever again, but you know what? I wouldn't mind a bit. I've run out of shelf space anyway. You wouldn't have so many matching plates that you start using them for dinnerware. Imagine if clubs took all the money they spend on 50 dinky trophies and put it into a seven big ones. If you won one of those, you'd remember it, and there'd be enough space on it for a plaque you didn't need a magnifying glass to read if you forgot. We'd lose this sense of entitlement that everyone seems to have, that they're OWED a trophy just because they showed up. Maybe then, people would go just to learn about their car and have a good time.

Perhaps we could even consider simplifying the scoresheet to lessen the tedium and make it more fun for the judges.

There would still be die-hard competitors and you could still keep the points system and the classes for national and regional ranking. But drop it at the local level.

We don't need more classes; we don't need more rules. This whole concours thing has gotten totally out of hand and people seem to have lost all sense of proportion. We need to simplify.

Mark Stephenson
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

Rex,
You are absolutely right. Driven should be extended the same considerations as champioship classes. And yes, we should be looking at ways to increase the membership and pump-up the fun factor.
I can understand your frustration in having to compete with a "trailer queen" with your driven vehicle. When I entered my first concours in 2001, I was encouraged to enter my 1938 SS Saloon in driven by other members and from recomendations on the JCNA website. Naturally, I looked at the rule book to familiarize myself with the rules for the driven division. It stated clearly that there was no trailering allowed in the driven divsion. So, I drove my car nearly 100 hundred miles to Columbia, SC. During this journey, I was forced to put the old gal in the graas median due to my not paying attention to what was going on in front of me. But I changed my pants and kept on going. I was just trying to follow the rules. You know, as well as I, that there are many who trailer thier driven cars to competitions, which in some cases I can't blame them for doing so, such as extreme distances. Of course I trailer my car now to most of the events I attend because of time and distance and most importantly because I am scared to death that sometihing terrible could occur. But I compete in the championship division and trailering is allowed. I would feel somewhat guilty trailering a driven divsion car, unless there were extreme circumstances. My point through all this rambling is that we must do a better job of enforcing the rules. And while I am at it. I have serioulsly considered submitting a proposal to the BOD to establish a true mechanical test for all classes, driven and championship. Hell, we are talking about cars here. They were designed to drive, stop, go, turn, and back-up. The mechanics should be emphasized as much as the cosmetics. If I wanted to just look at my car, I would frame it and tack it up on the wall!

Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

It's a "No Brainer" that we need a Driven Division in C16 Modified Class or a class given to modified, non-authentic cars. It is our purpose to extend the fun & membership at the local & national levels. I agree with Steve Gallant & Linda Young that the modified class must be offerd for Driven Division cars now, not later.

In the past few years the availability of aftermarket products has grown and offer over 1300 items including wheels, tires, mirrors, lights, light lenses, grills, paint, etc. made especially for the Jaguar car.

Last year I competed in the OKC Concours with my non-authentic, daily driver (1988 XJC VDP) against a vintage garage queen what has only driven from the trailer to the competion grounds. WHAT'S THE FUN IN THAT!

Not only have the times changed, it has moved on and it's time JCNA/JCRC wake up and meet the changing needs of its membership or that could be moving on too.

Cordially,

Rex Rexroad
President, JCTI

I see Dick has replied to you- I do not know if it will make you happy but I can assure you that the JCRC is working on your problem- in fact yesterday I asked if we could get a talking paper from you of your proposal as at Charlotte your points were unclear mostly due to procedural interuption- so yess please send me a copy of your editorial. As far as you hearing from the JCRC that is Dicks call but although he is my boss in the committee he has struck me as responsive to a fault.
George Camp

Stevo- it may be as you say but it was folks like you who demanded to have slightly modified cars in a class in championship! That was some time ago but you have done a lot of assuming in your rants here and in other areas. Simply stated you are looking at the structure today and damning everyone who is trying to work in the system. As a member of the JCRC I can state that we are working to address these problems. We did not exactly inherit a sound system but it is workable and we will try to help fix it. It was only a year and a half ago that I addressed these problems in public to senior JCNA officers and they thought I was out to lunch. They have realized there are problems and have given guidance to other JCNA members to work them out- so would you like to work on the problems or just vent?

George Camp

Steve: This was proposed several months ago.

See: http://www.jcna.com/forums/view.php?Vref=JCNA&Vfnum=001&Vthread=410

This proposal was submitted tot the AGM and was referred to committee. I have no idea what that means or what happens to it next. A progeress report would be nice.

I, along with Many others, Linda for example, would really like to see a class equal to C-16 in driven. Whether it happens or not, depends, in my opinion, on how committed JCNA is to providing the best possible services and events for its membership.

Regards, John

Linda

why don't you post in the concours forum for all to see?

all there is on the AGM agenda is
---
Item 2 q) Concours Judge Manual Section 3, Driven Division Classes û JC of Tulsa

Additional Class
It is proposed to add a Class D11: Modified and Special Interest
---

I feel strongly that a club member who takes the time to prepare his or her car and enters it even in Display is participating in showing the car!

Not sure what you meant, the proposal did say Modified and Special Interest. Maybe it's just me, but I don't find entering C16 was very ... how can I put it... interesting, reqwarding, since it all comes down to a detailing competition. Personally, even if a Modified Driven class is created, I doubt I'll enter in this either. Maybe it's just me... :-)

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2

Pascal,
The proposal put forth by JCTI was not for a special interest class in Driven. It is for a Modified Driven. Perhaps you would like a copy of the proposal and then you would see that your tires would not make a big difference.
The point is to encourage more participation in showing the cars not just parking it with a "Display" sign on it. That is pointless.

L D Young

The fact that Special Interest cars are not judged to ANY authenticity standard is in sharp contrast to all other Champion and Driven Division classes (except for C15) and a major departure from the original Concours d'Elegance objective of presenting Jaguars in their Factory/Original configurations.
Dick,
Could you please tell me where I might find a copy of the original Concours d'Elegance objective as I would like to read it.

Thanks,

L D Young

I'll throw in my 2 pennies about Special interest since my car is somewhat modified...

I used to show in Driven, took 2nd in 99 I think, and recently have shown in C16. why? mostly because of my tires... I run low profiles for handling and when I get to a Concours, I take a big hit. The rest of the modifications I have on my car are easily reversible on concours day (Steering wheel, leather console and tunnel cover) but at first I thought I may as well add the non originality deducts from under the bonnet and go in C16.

Now, having done that a few times, I actually feel that C16 is not that interesting. It all comes down to a detailing competition!!! so what's the point?

Adding a special interest class to driven will only mean the same thing. If you car is in good shape, then it's all a matter of cleanliness. Pointless.

Personally, and maybe others feel the same, I would be much happier in Driven if only driven cars where given some leeway when it comes to tires. I don't want to drive my series 3 V12 on 70 profile tires, 60 or 50 profile handle better and has a DRIVEN car this is what counts. go find a 70 profile high performance tire...

when are we forcing DRIVEN cars to be limited in their tire choice?

Then I'd have no problem swapping my steering wheel, tunnel cover, console and radio, shift knob on concours day and be in Driven where I belong. but a D16? I'd rather go display.

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2

Linda,
Your AGM and Steve Gallant's interest in adding a Special Interest Class to the Driven Division is under consideration by the Judge's
Concours Rules Committee (JCRC) during a current full review of Chapter 2 as well as many other related and unrelated issues. As soon
as JCRC concludes its work on Chapter 2, a notice will be posted on the Concour Forum and the revised cha[ter made available for
comment on the site's Concours page.

Over the years, JCNA has made many concessions to entrants who did not wish to prepare all components nor have them judged to the
full range of Authenticity, Condition and Cleanliness. The fact that Special Interest cars are not judged to ANY authenticity standard is in
sharp contrast to all other Champion and Driven Division classes (except for C15) and a major departure from the original Concours
d'Elegance objective of presenting Jaguars in their Factory/Original configurations.

None the less, it is JCNA's intent to meet the needs of its members and, if personalized cars now form a substantial concours interest
group, JCRC will make every effort to accommodate them.

Thanks for your continued input.

Dick Cavicke
Chairman, JCNA JCRC

Steve,
You are absolutly correct about the modified class only in Championship division. We (Jaguar Club of Tulsa) attempted to address this situation at the AGM in Charlotte. The proposed changes had been sent to the JCRC prior to the AGM but in light of the fact that we never received any communication on the proposal we brought it up again at the AGM. The proposal was once again referred to the JCRC and we have not had one word of communication since that time.

The immediate response to the proposal from some parties was that it damages the "purity" of the cars. Hogwash. As you stated in your post those who make changes to their cars have NO intention of, nor worry about, the "purity" of their cars. So why should these cars/owners be penalized by not having a class that would encourage more participation?

I wrote an editorial in our May newsletter addressing this very issue. If you (or anyone else) would like a copy of that article and/or the proposal that has been made, I would be happy to send it to them.
L D Young