Gary's proposal

I think this had been discussed earlier on, it could be a good alternative. Still gives punch to the JCC and forces participation in at least 1 local event

maybe that can be offered as an amendment or a mutilple choice proposal...

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

Daniel:

Sorry for the delay, I had to find my sh*t shooter and holster before bellying up to this bar:) To answer your questions:

1.) One can never completely do anything, there are no absolutes, and we can only try our collective best.

2.) At least the draconian proposal got everybody talking. A lot of heads came screaming out of the sand.

3.) There are no fully qualified judges anywhere, but some are more qualified than others. Again, we do our collective best. I know I’ve been humbled by my experience writing our Series II E-Type Judges’ Guide, and suspect Bob Stevenson has been humbled by writing our Series I Judges’ Guide. I’m sure we are on the right track by creating these guides and using the collective wisdom of JCNA to do it.

Now, can I have another cold one?

Oh, I kind of like Gary’s proposal, but wonder if instead of being the equivalent of 3 local concours, it might be better being the equivalent of 2? The devil’s always in the details isn’t he?

Cheers

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

The question would be Stew: is it realistic to think that you will ever completely eliminate disparity in Regional Judging?

The draconian solution to "problems" in JCNA concours judging was suggested by one of our esteemed and most experienced judges at the last AGM: just suspend the Championship class until it can be fixed.

A less draconian solution would be to suspend Championship class at the local level and make the biannual Challenge Championship the only place where a car can be judged.

Let me ask you this question: how many fully qualified (emphasis on qualified) judges do you think we have in all of JCNA (the US and Canada) that are able to competently and fairly judge an XK 120 at Championship level?

Think about it and try to guess a number. I'll be honest and tell you that I personally am NOT qualified to do it.

Remember, we're having fun here! This is a bunch of 'ol boys sitting around the bar enjoying a cold one and shootin' the sh*t.

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Daniel:

I think "regional" and "disparity" are synonyms and you've already told George Camp that one of JCNA's biggest Concours problems is disparity:)

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Thank you Mike and John for weighing in with some very valuable and helpful insights.

I think the dicussion here is how to make the Challenge Championship more meaningful and therefore attract more participants. Revising the current method of determining JCNA national concours champions is a very contentious issue and I don't think it will be resolved here.

Mike's suggestions have merit. The CC can continue to run a "regional" concours, with a special "invitation only" concours held on the side. The participants in this invitation only event could come from regional champions from the PREVIOUS competition year. As Mike suggests, let each region (presumably via the regional directors) choose their candidates for inclusion on the invite list based on classes. I assume the regions will invite the top 2 or 3 cars from their region in each class. There are six regions and 20 Championship classes, so you can do the math and see how many invitations will go out.

The trophies given out at the CC could be seperate from those given to the "regular" annual concours winners. By putting the right spin on it, the CC trophies could be seen as the Holy Grail of JCNA concours trophies, thereby giving incentive to participants to make the trip.

Keep the CC a bi-annual event. I agree very much with Mike: every region should hold an annual "Regional" event, along the lines of the CC, with the CC rotating (perhaps even on a fixed schedule) around the regions every two years. Unlike the UK, America is a big country. Too big to reasonably expect a large number of people to drive 1500 or 2000 miles to attend a Challenge Championship. I think we should put MUCH MORE emphasis on regional coordination and activities, to the point where we practically have six more or less seperate regional clubs operating within the JCNA umbrella. Can you imagine a club magazine with six seperate reports from six regions, all highlighting activies and events unique to the region? Wow!

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Mike makes some valid points in items 1, 2 and 3 in his post.

Overall I think there are two issues being addressed in this topic:

1. Making the Championship Challenge more meaningful, and

2. Replacing or revising the current method of selecting national champions.

Is it JCNA's intent to address both issues or is the revision of the current method of national champion selection seen as the only way to make the CC more meaningful?

If addressing both issues: If both issues are to be addressed then the most meaningful change would be to make all other concours feed into regional standings only and then invite the regional champions to participate in a CC in the fall. To accomplish this all local concours would have to be completed by the end of summer to accomodate a CC in the fall. As an alternative the CC could be held in Nov or Dec to allow for a longer local concours season, but weather considerations would then probably limit the event to Southern venues. While this proposal probably fairly chooses a national champion it has liabilities; a) The distances and time involved would probably prohibit many regional champions from participating in the CC which could lead to the question "did the best car win or did the best car that the owner could afford to take to the CC win?", b) What happpens to the many Jaguar owners who would like to show their cars at the CC, are they then relegated to display status?, c)This proposal does not address how to choose national champions every other year when there is not a CC. Are national champions in the non-CC years selected as they are currently? If so do those national championships carry the same stature as those won at the CC?

Allowing the CC score to subsitute for three local concours would probably discourage local competition if the the CC were held early in the year and the partipants scored highly. I know it has been said that this would offer an incentive to those who are only going to show locally to work extra hard to make their cars correct and it may for those who are seriously into the concours scene. The more casual concours participant may decide the forgo the effort and just enter in Display if he she enters at all. We like to think all judges are equally knowledgable and that judging is consistant nationally. In truth this may not be a correct assumption. I would expect the best judges from across the JCNA would work the CC. Would this create an inequity between the level of judging at the CC and local concours which might unfairly skew the results? And, you still have the problem of how to determine national champions in non-CC years.

Making the CC count as a single concours score does nothing to enhance the stature of the CC so that is probably not an option.

One way to make the CC stand out is to set it aside from the current JCNA concours system. Make the show unique. Offer significant awards (i.e. expensive) different from the standard plates and cups that are given JCNA national champions. Set the CC apart as a unique event. A gathering and celebration of Jaguars.

Regards, John Walker

I guess I should have checked in on this thread earlier. I think it's a terrible idea to allow the Challenge score to "trump" local scores. Here are a few thoughts:

1) This ain't a small country. The cost and time involved in getting to a national show is onerous for all but a small core of the membership. Allowing the Challenge score to dominate local events disadvantages a large cross section of the membership.

2) Concours competition presents a mixed image problem to begin with...we lose a lot of appeal by appearing elitist and judgemental. By making the national score this important, we make the reality match the appearance.

3) The local "show circuit" allows less developed local clubs attract some top cars to their concours.

4) The Challenge is biennial... are we suggesting making it annual? See point one...this makes participation twice as onerous.

My suggestion: If you want a "trump" show, let's have a series of annual, regional shows...the regional show can trump the local shows. This would allow the best cars in a region to be judged together, but still keep things geographically compact. The local clubs may still suffer some, but you can't fix everything.

Next, make keep the Challenge biennial, but make it a separate part of one region's show. The format of the Challenge would be the same thing, only different: let's make it a super special INVITATIONAL concours, which would run ALONGSIDE of the regional concours. That way, instead of getting a hundred E-Types begging for attention, the eight "best" cars in the country would compete exclusively and head to head. We would know they are the best, because they each would be singled out by their regions based on past showings. Invitations would automatically go to each regional first, and each club would get to nominate some number of cars.

This way, everyone wins. There are big shows with big points, but without the heavy dedication of time and money involved in a national show. The very best cars are singled out for special attention in a special show. And most important, we don't intimidate the average Jaguar Joe.

Bottom line is I don't think it goes far enough and I don't think it will make any difference at all to the turn-out at future Challenge Championships. I think we should go all the way and make the Challenge Championship THE national championship in JCNA concours. There are a multitude of ways this can be accomplished while still encouraging participation in local concours.

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

I don't think so... there can always be a tie. If you look at the 2001 results, this is exactly how it would have ended and it would have been fair to have Terry Love S3 E-type tied for first with 100 pts. Sicne he cold only attend one other show, we have a situation where the recipient of the Challenge Championship Trophy doesn't appear in the end of the year results...

While it could possibly discourage a handful of participants, it will also make them work twice as hard... raising the quality is a good thing...

Pascal Gademer
SFJC