Pulling Teeth!

nope... it's going on a month now...

I've sent a couple of emails, I think Bill Streitenberger has even called them. One of the club officers was going to reming the concours chair or head judge but nothing yet...

it's the only missing event that's preventing us to do a final check and post final results...

slalom is complete, except for the Florida Slalom this sunday, but that will be in by monday... Rally is also missing some events...

frustrating...

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

Any news from Southern Arizona yet???

Regards, John

FWIW, Pascal, Jaguar Touring Club always charges non-members the event membership fee and sends the money to JCNA. However, JCNA never cashes the checks and never sends the membership card to these registrants. That fee is supposed to make them eligible for other JCNA events for that year, but without the card...

Just another example of the irritating JCNA lethargy and lack of response to the membership. Sometimes I wonder why we bother.

Warren

Lisa,

Web data entry is similar to desktop database in many ways. Speed was my main concern as drop down boxes and the like are slow. it's much faster to punch in 5 digits (remember that members are supposed to give their numbers...) and hit enter than going thru a list...

We do a lot of shipping with Fedex here and everyone hates having to scroll thru a list of hundreds of recipient, even sorted, to find the right one. Loadind large chunks of data in a drop down box ins't very efficient either...

What I will do for next year, is force an annoying warning message when someone types a name manually, leaves a number blank, etc...

And for the new members who's number hasn't been created if they joined right before an event, the club should be respnsible for suplying those. Remember that for insurance to cover an entrant, he has to be a member, or pay the event membership fee. Unfortunately nobody checks that.

I'm sure that if you add up the number of blank JCNA numbers in the reports, they will not add up to the number of event membership turned in to JCNA ...

but that's another story... and not my concern... :-)

Pascal

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

Sorry, on additional point -- I noticed in the slalom results that most clubs report times to 3 places/thousandths (ex. 45.023). Some report to hundreths (45.02) or tenths (45.0). In one case, some times were reported in seconds only, with no fractions. As those of us who race know, there is a big difference between 45.023 and 45.000.

All times should be clocked on equipment that records to thousandths and reported that way or they should not be considered official for standing purposes. Preferrably with automatic timing equipment. My 2 cents.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Warren makes a good point. Certainly, with the many upgrades to the system there will be a learning curve until people master the system. But I think that the old computer adage: "Garbage in, garbage out" applied a bit here. I suspect the problem is not that people can't input the date correctly (if it is, Warren's point need to be considered and approriate training needs to take place). I believe that it happens before that -- at initial data collection.

This is a harder issue but one fully in control of those people running events. When accepting entries, those in charge should review the forms and assure that all necessary info, including JCNA number, are supplied. If info is omitted, that's the time to go back to the entrant and say "Hey, if you don't supply this, your score/time will not be entered as an official score/time." Then it's up to the entrant to either supply the info or suffer the consequences. Perhaps the stock forms should be updated with a bold-faced warning such as: "IF YOU DO NOT SUPPLY ALL REQUESTED INFORMATION INCLUDING YOUR JCNA MEMBER NUMBER, YOUR SCORE/TIME WILL NOT BE REPORTED TO JCNA IN THE OFFICIAL RESULTS." That ought to get the point across.

As for the issue of local officials making mistakes or failing to report scores/times, that's a different matter altogether. Those who take on the job should do what they said they would. Most importantly, report the scores/time promptly and accurately. Mistakes happen. Since the info is publicly available, competitors who are "in the running" should take it upon themselves to check the listings on this website and be sure their own results are there and are correct. Nothing wrong with scanning other scores to look for obvious errors either. If mistakes are found, they should be brought to the attention of the local chair and national chair.

I think it is incredibly generous of Pascal that he takes it upon himself to fix things. But I just don't think it is fair that the burden falls on him and that those who screw up to begin with are not held accountable or given any incentive to do it right. Let's not kill the goose that laid the golden egg here. Find a way to make people do it right to begin with.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

I was in a breakfast networking meeting this morning at which most of the others were in telecommunications and computers. One of the points that came up was how few companies take the trouble to learn and then to teach their employees the full scope of capabilities of the (expensive) hardware AND software they have invested in. The overriding point being that use of these tools can make business function better and be more profitable. It seems we also have an education issue here: the system we now have in place can do more than the users realize or know how to do. It's certainly not an easy problem to solve with such a widespread organization (more of a federation, really). Pascal is exceedingly patient in explaining and re-explaining how things can work. I certainly wish we had had such good tools for reporting five years ago. Hopefully, as we move forward, people will come to rely on the new tools which make the job so much easier, rather than continue to rely on the old way with its built-in capacity for error. Change is always difficult...

Regards,
Warren

I think Pascal brings up a good point.

The results submitted to JCNA for one of the concours I entered this year were not reported correctly, my JCNA number was left off of the submitted results. I did include my number on the documents I filled out at the concours. The host club made the error; it happens.

If JCNA had adopted a hardball policy of automatically throwing out results without JCNA numbers and if I had not checked the website and noticed the mistake I would not have been given credit for participating in three concours. This could obviously affect the competition standings. I don't think we can automatically assume everyone is going to the JCNA website to check their current standings. Throwing out a participant's score because of no JCNA number would not be fair to the participant who provided that information to the hostclub.

The responsibility for acquiring the correct information from participants and reporting it to JCNA should be the responsibility of the clubs. If a participant does not know their JCNA number they should be informed by the club that their concours score will not be reported to JCNA without the number. The participant should then be given a reasonable time period (say, 72 hours?) to provide the number to the host club. If they fail to do so the results go to JCNA with that participant's score omitted.

This does not address, however, the situation such as I found myself in this year and I can think of no steps that could be taken to ensure that such an error does not occur. That would indicate that there needs to be some reasonable flexibility in applying the rules.

This brings up a question: What would JCNA do if a score, by not being reported, changed the legitimate order of finish in a class and the participant, having noticed that he/she was not awarded the trophy they thought they would get, protested?

Regards, John

Pascal,

So instead YOU get punished. That doesn't make any sense to me. You already do way more than your share of the work here. Perhaps if we have a few pissed off, outraged members who didn't get scores posted and we tell them it is the fault of their concours/slalom/rally chair, those folks will wake up and fly right! Nothing like a swift kick in the ass to get their attention.

As long as you keep covering for them and fixing their errors, they have no reason to change what they are doing. It's like dealing with little children -- let them learn from the consequences of their mistakes. No one wants angry members; that only leads to people quiting. But if you keep doing other people's work, you will be swamped and eventually you will throw your hands up in frustration. And we can't afford to lose YOU!

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Gary,

If the requirement for a JCNA number is in the rules, whether Concours, Slalom or Rally, the solution is very simple. Enforce the existing rule. We don't need new rules or action at the AGM. Quite simply, any results that omit a JCNA number should be rejected. Period. If some numbers are given, but others not, the scores for those with JCNA numbers should be posted and the remainder rejected. Then it is up to the event chair to either fix it and resubmit it or not. If a participant checks and sees his/her score missing, they should be directed to follow up with the event chair to assure that the score is properly submitted. It is not and should not be the webmaster or JCNA level chairs' responsibility to follow up on or fix these things.

Further, if event chairs are not properly submitting results in a timely manner, you have the power to give them an incentive -- deny future sanctions for events until they fix the problem. If we let them get away with it, then they will not change.

This stuff is not rocket science. The rules are simple and the forms are simple. It is up to those running events to make sure that forms are properly filled out and that the necessary info, including member numbers, is provided. If the event chairs then fail to submit the info properly, let the members chase after them when the results don't get posted.

Many thanks to Pascal and the others who have expanded this website and simplified the system for requesting sanctions and reporting results. The power and methodology to deal with those who don't want to comply with the rules already exists. Just use it. You may be surprised at the result. And it won't take Novacane for it to work.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Gary,

Like a dentist (to extend your metaphor) you have touched a sensitive nerve! As Slalom Chair for Jaguar TOuring Club for the past 5 years not getting members' JCNA numbers has been the second biggest problem for me. (The first has been finding suitable venues!) People don't file tax returns without social security numbers; why is it so difficult for them to come to an event with their JCNA numbers. I agree with your proposal to withhold posting of scores of participants who do not supply their number.

Regards,
Warren Hansen

Gary,
I can't agree with you more. It is unfortunate that we have all this wonderful technology at our disposal to almost instantly report and update these scores, and in many cases it is not being utilized. Could it be that some are not aware that we have these tools available? Or maybe there are some that do not adapt easily to change? At the AGM in March, maybe you should consider giving Pascal some time to give an overview of all the wonderful changes and additions he has made to the website, and how much simpler everyones lives can be be by getting with the program.

Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES