69 series 2 starter problems

"Drive it like you stole it"

That is some classic material right there...the morning laugh in so cal....

Wil Brady; Yes lock washers were inltalled, The reason must be evil JU-Ju or the curse of Lucas's dark energy, or somesuch boogie man. The car is a Driven Class winner but I tend to drive with a heavy foot and drive at any time or for any reason so don't worry myself too much over why something breaks, it is usually fun to fix and even make it better. Drive it like you stole it, I'm 74 going on 17, so what the hell...........Don Hilston hilstonsmgaol.com

Don, how did they come loose, were no locking divices such as spring lock washers used!

Bernie; That is correct. The starter bolts to the adapter and then the adapter, with the mounted starter, bolts through the adapter to the bell housing. One type starter with many adapters to fit most cars.
The bolts for the starter go through the adapter and thread into the starter and can not be acessed after the whole unit is mounted to the bell housing. The adapter is aluminum and dosnt hold threads , the reson for this setup I would guess. Whatever the reason is, use Loctite on the starter to adapter bolts and you're golden.........Don

Do I understand it correctly that your starter doesn't bolt directly and requires a separately bolted spacer/adapter before mounting the starter?

I replaced the original starter with a new type gear driven starter about three years ago and loved it. High torque and better starts until last week. The bolts that connect the starter to the adaptor plate came loose and the motor just spun free. Starter and adaptor removed and no damage to anything so was reassembeled, BUT, with loctite on the bolt threads. I recommend these starters but as the connect bolts are from the inside of the adaptor plate, Loctite or some other thread lock goop should be used to save yourself the grim job of R&R. Due to age and lazyness this job was done by Jaguar Doctor in Boca Raton and not me. I'll do the upper of the engine myself but Jag Doc has lifts and more skill...A lot younger too. Don Hilston

You've got courage lad...most admirable...I've got a ways to go before I'd take a shot at Pebble Beach even from here in my E (my jag is a great, good looking 2nd owner driver-but not on PB level in no way) and...that's about 450 miles from San Diego...I am up to San Fran frequently (almost always drive it) and know the roads quite well...the coast scenic starting at around San Luis...absolutely in my opinion the best stretch of highway in the country...switchbacks, Big Sur, etc...incredible-to say the least....a treat to drive IF THERE ISN"T FOG!!

You've got to plan Pebble Beach far in advance....we've wanted to do it and will eventually, but haven't as of yet. Reservations book out way way in advance for housing and other activities...

Thanks for the help on the starter...you nailed the field coils...going up to northern Cal within the next few weeks on highway 5 and am going to return our core personally to Jag Heaven in Stockton and check the place out...that was the lead your buddy John from Long Island gave me.

Bernie.........Glad to help, Your restored starter should last a very long time.
There is nothing wrong with the reduced gear starter , but I felt it was nice to try and restore the original.
Im planning a run from Long Island to Pebble Beach next year. For the concours.
Any interest in meeting with other Etypes?
Maybe we can do a run up the coast if I come up from the south.......
GTJOEY1314

Case closed....faulty field coils

Thanks Joey, I called John Farrell and he gave me the idea to call Jag Heaven in Stockton, CA.
JH had a used '69 starter that we bought, but unfortunately, after we got that, it also tested to be in need of repair

It was in fact the field coils that were bad. The coils in the JH starter were okay, and my starter shop combined the two to make one working starter...slapped it all back together - and presto - back in business...

Was challenging to stay original but I really wanted to... took a little extra time and money, but I am pleased with the results.

Thanks to all for ideas and assistance

Case closed....faulty field coils

Thanks Joey, I called John Farrell and he gave me the idea to call Jag Heaven in Stockton, CA.
JH had a used '69 starter that we bought, but unfortunately, after we got that, it also tested to be in need of repair

It was in fact the field coils that were bad. The coils in the JH starter were okay, and my starter shop combined the two to make one working starter...slapped it all back together - and presto - back in business...

Was challenging to stay original but I really wanted to... took a little extra time and money, but I am pleased with the results.

Thanks to all for ideas and assistance

Bernie, call old timer John Farrell in New York, his shelves are loaded with this stuff, to be honest he might just have a starter on the shelf......
He is a life long jcna guy from the begining....tell him GTJOEY sent you......
Phone 1 631 454 7977...........He did my starter with new windings Id say 18 years ago and I just arrived in Carlisle 235 miles in 85 degree heat!
It always starts........ALWAYS!
Good luck
GTJOEY1314

So I hit a bit of a snag here on the starter...the problem is most definitely the field coils and our plan was to re-wrap them to restore...problem is, the copper below is substantially burnt and not serviceable, so I need new field coils for this starter to stay original...

any sources out there that anyone knows of would be appreciated...

Now thats funny......enjoy the day!
GTJOEY1314

my tool box isn't big enough for 2,300 miles....tough to turn down the donuts though.....

Great news!, now your only 2,300 miles away from Import Carlisle, hop in that lovely car and meet us, I will be there thursday 8 am and a 400 mile one way run!
The first round of donuts are on me.......
Great job!
GTJOEY1314

Yes Joey... thanks again for all of the ideas from all of you..

I pulled the starter out again this weekend and dropped it off at my re-build shop this morning.

Prior to, I cleaned and rebuilt the main ground terminal and cleaned the ground strap that Tom Curren had mentioned...so I took the ground off the table as a cause. Heated the car up real good...and then drove for about 30 minutes...stopped on a nearby hill (so I could jump it) and when I tried to start it, hardly even a solenoid click. Like a dead battery.

I called my re-build shop (the guy is a pro) and he was convinced that it is the field coils. He explains what happens is (the starter works fine cold) that when the car heats and transfers same to starter, the tired fields break down and draw the amps but they don't pass thru to operate the motor....after the above workout and upon removal, the starter didn't smell that great either. Another sign of the bad fields.

He could not find the fields to purchase on the aftermarket, so he advised me turnaround time (which from him is usually next day) will be 3 days because it has to be hand-wound.

I am pretty confident I've got it figured now, I will give a follow up final with (hopefully) successful results.

I also have a 1976 TR-6 and replaced that starter with a gear reduction starter a few years ago...I have the original TR starter on my shelf, and to be honest, I'd wish I had re-built that too. I had serious trouble with the wiring for awhile with that replacement starter...so I agree with the thought that if these things can in fact be fixed correctly, you cannot beat original.

Now that I think about it Joseph has a good point about flat spots. I do remember giving the starter a good smack with hammer when they act like this on older cars where it is accessible. Not really possible on a XK engine E though.

David Barnes
68 E-type FHC

Bernie, you have whats called FLAT SPOTS on the windings in the field coils......
Two options, rebuild your old starter with new components or go for the new MEAN GREAN, I think they call them in the states. Thats the new mini high rev starter.....
I personally love my original , they are so heavy duty, but finding the RIGHT GUY to REALLY rebuild your starter will be the trick......
Hence people just buy the new mini starter.
Theres nothing wrong, its just not original , up side is they weigh less then half the original and are 40 percent smaller in size.
Good luck.
GTJOEY1314

Another suggestion: Without an inductive ammeter, use a DC voltmeter to measure the voltage between ground and the starter input terminal/stud while it is in the normal start mode and when it is in the fail mode. If the voltage is lower in the fail mode it might indicate excess current being drawn. If it's higher in the fail mode it might indicate lower current draw in the starter and thereby less voltage drop in the starter cables.

If you remove the starter for the field tests, be sure to ask that the armature be tested on a "Growler" for shorts and opens. You mentioned that the commutator was replaced. If so, there's always the possibility of a "cold"/intermittent solder joint. You Tube has some excellent demonstrations of growler testing.

From what I have now learned, I am starting to think it is the fields that are at fault here...the solenoid (good guess by both of you) and commutators were replaced on the rebuild...the fields were not and they table tested (cold) okay...but, they are vulnerable at higher temperatures and this fault sequences perfectly as to when the problem appears...at full operating temperature...when the car is cold, the starter turns like a champ.

This starter (as you know) is located right next to the block...little airflow there, and I would imagine after 30 minutes of operation, it's heat pretty much equals that of the exterior of the block..

I will recheck the grounds, and have a few other checks to perform..but I highly suspect of the fields now.

I might agree with Tom that it could be a starter solenoid problem. Last summer I had somewhat similar symptoms as you describe with a 70's Chevrolet I have. It turned out to be the connection on the stud going into the starter solenoid for the battery cable was slightly loose inside the solenoid. My guess is would make good enough contact to work when cold but when heat soaked after running for awhile on a hot day if I stopped for 15-20 minutes and then turned the key to start again nothing would happen. I tightened the stud back up and no more problems since

David Barnes
'68 E-type FHC

The starter solenoid is another possible source of the problem. If the input and output terminals of the solenoid (the large ones) are available, measure the voltage drop between these two terminals when the solenoid is activated. I haven't made any measurements but I would think that the drop would be less than one volt. If it's in excess of this amount it may mean that the solenoid internal contacts may not be making good contact.

A long time ago I purchased a handy little current measuring device. It's a dual range (starter and generator/alternator) inductive ammeter. It measures the current flow through a cable by simply being placed against the side of the cable and not connected in series with it. It should not be placed against the cable in the near vicinity of the starter or generator/alternator as the magnetic fields radiated by those devices will cause a faulty reading. If the current(ampere) readings are low it's an indication that the proper voltage is not reaching the rebuilt starter. It's not a precise measuring device but I've done comparison tests and found it's readings to be close to those of series-connected meters.

The manufacturer is not marked on it.

It's cold now so I cannot test it at fault....I neglected to mention in my first thread that I did attempt a hot start during the fault using one of the jump cables to a chassis components...of course, next time I will try a head bolt with more certainty

where on the bell housing is the grounding strap you referred to?

thanks for your thoughts and help

There is a ground strap from the bell housing to the chassis. Does it start if you connect the ground jumper cable to a head bolt instead of the battery?