Ignition System Questions

Not at all Phil, and it's not my call anyhow. But I have had reason to be grateful for the occasional 'kick under the table' in my time - mostly delivered by a female companion when I am sounding off, completely oblivious of the subtler nuances of a situation... Or in my case, the bleedin' obvious nuances!

Unlike other forums, I don't see how to send private emails here so I had to hint in public. Besides, George is a nice guy and perfectly able to feed you your nuts through a straw if he so desires. Consequently, I wouldn't dream of making his decisions for him, lest my own wedding tackle ended up in a blender.

Cheers

Not at all Phil, and it's not my call anyhow. But I have had reason to be grateful for the occasional 'kick under the table' in my time - mostly delivered by a female companion when I am sounding off, completely oblivious of the subtler nuances of a situation... Or in my case, the bleedin' obvious nuances!

Unlike other forums, I don't see how to send private emails here so I had to hint in public. Besides, George is a nice guy and perfectly able to feed you your nuts through a straw if he so desires. Consequently, I wouldn't dream of making his decisions for him, lest my own wedding tackle ended up in a blender.

Cheers

Point taken Peter.

Sorry for over staying my welcome. Won't happen again.

Got to love your persistence Phillip but it might be nice to cut poor old George a bit of slack?

The man kept repeatedly answering your question ( that you now see could have been answered by looking at your paperwork) and even offered his phone number to save his typing time. Now you'd like him to look up some parts from another model? As it happens, I think he already said which car used those parts (clue: it's the only other Jaguar that used the XK engine in the 1970s and into the 80s). Yup, you guessed right! :-)

All,

After listening to different thoughts and ideas I decided to do a little more research on my end.
I pull out all of the parts tickets and repair orders he gave me when I purchased the car.

On 11-12-01 there is a repair order that states "change ignition cap & wires and install wire brackets. On the parts side of the RO it lists the following parts and part numbers:
3 - C-33460 Ign wire tree
2 - C-41030 Bracket
1 - C-41029 Bracket

Apparently this was done when the ignition system was converted to the ignitor system.

I am convinced our man George was/is correct. I think a round of applause is in order!!!

Now I just have to round up all of the correct parts and get it done.

Many thanks to all of you who weighed in on this discussion.

Best regards,

phil

BTW - George which car do the above parts go on??

George,

No apology necessary. You are providing me with the guidance for a correct vehicle and that is ultimately what I am trying to achieve.

Thanks!

Phil please see the entry that some of the parts that you have were not in the Jaguar system when your car was built.

George,

No apology necessary. You are providing me with the guidance for a correct vehicle and that is ultimately what I am trying to achieve.

Thanks!

George,

You keep adding pieces to the puzzle. Do you think the bracket and standoff were the ones you referred to in your previous post ? If so is it on the wrong head bolt?

Thanks again!!

Phil it is just wrong-it does not matter which botl it is on. Sorry.

Phil I am at 888-258-2524 ex#3

George,

You keep adding pieces to the puzzle. Do you think the bracket and standoff were the ones you referred to in your previous post ? If so is it on the wrong head bolt?

Thanks again!!

Edited on 2013-03-05 19:50:55

Phil glad it is fun. The Champion ends shown above were deleated in favor of moulded RED champion ends when that suspension system was used.

George,

You are right this has been and continues to be fun. I will attach a picture of the #2 stand and seperator. The car has a total of three stands and seperators. One at the Thermostat, One on the second stud on the head bolt and the third one between cylinders 3 - 4.

George, always remeber how much I appreciate your efforts and technical expertise.

Robert;
First the VINs and Build date would make perfect snese to me. Your car was built 2.5 months before my car and would therefore have a lower VIN than I do. Not sure about that.
Second, Please send me any and all pictures you have of your engine car etc. I would love to have an accurate reference point. My email is phwnorthstate.net. Thanks very much.

To both of you a BIG THANK YOU!!

Phillip.

My car is also 71 XKE Roadster, with 18000 miles. Everything is original. Would close-up photos of my engine's ignition components help you?

If so, let me know, and I will email them to you, since the JCNA limits size, and my camera takes 3MB photos. Just send me your email to rgrisar at hotmail dot com.

Phil I just noticed one more item. When that system was used there was a backet and standoff at the front right head stud . You do not seem to have that one.

9

Phil this has been fun and I sure understand if you want to keep it that way. I also like your sluthing but I will tell you that someone has changed all of that stuff. Aside from the parts manual and all of the IPLs here is perhaps the most convincing evidence. The parts pictured on your thermo housing were probably in the Jaguar parts system in 1971 as they show up in the S1XJ6 parts catalog from engine number 7G17029 and 7L35133. Those are parts C.33468 and C33460. These are confirmed in the J12 Master parts listing. The other parts however--esp. the brackets that go on head studs (C.41029 and C.41030)--( C.41029 is the one you found under the cross over are not in the Jaguar system as late as 1973--long after your car was far from Coventry. The parts do show up with the IPL for the Series 2 XJ6 and of course continued through the S3 XJ6. Was your car an experiment--who can say but if your car was a production model there would have to be a parts supply to support it-the fact the parts were not in the system for at least 2 years later sort of says it all.

Something might be wrong with the car's build date or VIN number.

Your heritage certificate says 16 September 1970 with VIN P2R14751.

My heritage certificate says 27 June 1970 with VIN P2R14242.

Strange that my car was built 10 weeks earlier, and has a VIN 509 lower.

Hi Guys,

Well it seems that technology jumped up and bit me - again : ^ ).

I had the forum page open and as it had been for several hours while I was doing things around the house. So when I got back to look at the Forum I did not see a couple of your posts.

So after writing my note, I discovered that I had "timed out" and needed to refresh the page to get up to date and of course at that time your & several others posts showed up.

As always, Thanks so much for your valuable insight.

Last night I discowered another spark plug wire "stand" and separator" in between the #3 & #4 cylinders. Conveniently hidden uner the emissions cross-over pipe. I have included an additional picture of the third seperator. I know this does not conform with the parts books and conventional thinking but it has convienced me that my car did not come with the sleve, the conduit, grommet and the clip listed in the parts manual.

I ordered the sleeve but will now take Peter's advice completley and leave the current configuration as is.

It is probably of little value but my car does appear to be a very late car. According to the Heritage Certificte is was built on 16 September 1970 with VIN P2R14751,
Guys, Thanks So Very Much for all of your insight into this post...this is such a club benefit, it definitely makes fun out of research!

Regards,
phil

I have a '68 with the series 2 type engine and I was pricing plug wires and conduit a few months ago. My memory was the wires/conduit pre-assembled was $200+. I opted for the wires and conduit seperately for around $90 from Welsh and assembled them myself. It was not too tough to put together with the little copper contact "washers" for my car with a screw-on type distributor cap. Sounds like there is also a plug-in type so make sure you get the right type wires to match your distributor cap. Also my car does not have AC. It has the coil mounted accross the front of the engine in between the cam covers not on the frame rail like your photo shows. Perhaps they changed things on the '71's or cars that have more engine driven accessories.

David Barnes
'68 FHC

I have a '68 with the series 2 type engine and I was pricing plug wires and conduit a few months ago. My memory was the wires/conduit pre-assembled was $200+. I opted for the wires and conduit seperately for around $90 from Welsh and assembled them myself. It was not too tough to put together with the little copper contact "washers" for my car with a screw-on type distributor cap. Sounds like there is also a plug-in type so make sure you get the right type wires to match your distributor cap. Also my car does not have AC. It has the coil mounted accross the front of the engine in between the cam covers not on the frame rail like your photo shows. Perhaps they changed things on the '71's or cars that have more engine driven accessories.

David Barnes
'68 FHC

Well Guys,
The previous owner was in charge of the car for 25 years. In the box of random spare parts was another set of plug wires. They appear to be graphite core and not wire core like the set that is currently on the car. Funny thing he was not cheap and seemed to "try" to do most task by the book. But I am not so sure about this repair.

George may remember, at his sugesstion, and he was correct, I spent the money for the E type IPLs and the Illustrated S2 parts manual. I had looked at the manual before my original post but found it hard to believe that the the two stands and seperators were not original. My thought process was, the car needed a set of wires. Someone looked at the difficulty of routing them through the conduit and said "aw you don't need that part anyway." Not as good as Cliff's story but I am sticking with it.

I agree with all that the coil was also replaced with an incorrect unit at some point. I think the solution is a comprimise of sorts. Leave the stands and separrators as is. Route the wires correctly over the cam cover. Add the conduit down the spark plug valley. And finally replace the coil with a correct unit.

I am open to any and all final recommendations/suggestions.

Thanks much,

phil

Phil I did in my post.

Hi George,

Thanks for the input. Knowing the coil is a non-original part helps alot. I went back to the Judging Guideand looked closely at the picture and (as best I can tell) it looks to be a plain black coil. I could not find a part number on the unit.

As for the wires, I have attached another picture that shows the two stands with the "separators". The separators look original because they have a square locating pin on the backside that fits into the stand. Do you think these are correct?

Still looking for a recommendation for the "sleeve & conduit" vendor. Have you seen one(s) that you would recommend?

As always THANKS George!

phil

FWIW - my 70 OTS, built in Nov 69, came from the dealer without the conduit when I bought it new in Dec 70 and with a battery-powered clock. So, I once thought that was originally the way it was built. Years later I learned it wasn't unusal for a dealer's service department who needed, say, a conduit, to "borrow" one from a model on the show room floor, perhaps even reordering a replacement, which in my case was never installed.

Oh well, another half-baked theory shot down by inconvenient facts! Thanks George ;-)

Deep down, in the darkest recesses of my skeptical recidivist heart, I still think it's original. I don't like to let evidence get in the way of a good hunch but of course I'd never say so publicly. Oh, wait...did I type that out loud?

I can't see anyone deliberately swapping a neat original system for a cheapo less elegant bundle, unless maybe at some point the entire plug wire and dizzy cap assembly were swapped from an XJ because of some misfire issue? But then they'd have to be not only cheapskates but meticulous cheapskates to take away all the original stuff including undoing head nuts to remove the conduit, and then fasten the XJ separators under the nuts needed for those. Yeah, actually now that I think about it, that's not very hard to imagine. You must be right.

But REALLY deep down.... :-)

There is no technical bulletin or evidence that the S2/S3 XJ6 wire system was used on the EX/EM E-type engine. In fact the S1 XJ6 )1968-1971 used a sleve arrangement and the S2/3 type of clip from 7G.17029 and 7L 35133. (see plates 25.49 and 25.50 of the XJ6 catalog JC 89 (dated Dec 72.). Looking at the E type IPLs and the Illustrated S2 parts manual it would seem factual that all S2 EX/EM engines used the sleve, grommet and clip. There are no changes. The coil for what it is worth should be marked HA 12 (45208A) for non ballasted cars and 16C6 (45227) for ballasted cars. Hope this helps.
The sleve is C.19889 --the conduit is C.24126--grommet 3204 --and clip is C.25127. last time I checked SNG had all of them.

Yes, I will defer to the US experts but would think those do look original for very late cars and are certainly what the XJ6 was using at that time. The lower organiser just above the dizzy would replace the oval clip and grommet George referred to, since you certainly couldn't have both in the same spot. I would concur the coil is a replacement.

I would have thought the usuals would carry the PVC and fiber tubes but your routing hardware goes over the side of the cam cover not front of the head and is incompatible with that earlier system I think. I'd keep your 71 'as-is', save yourself a few dollars and rejoice in a rare late combo of parts., if that floats your boat! The fiber conduit must have been deleted when those separators came in as again the two could not work together. My 70 still has it but yours is later.

Hi George,

Thanks for the input. Knowing the coil is a non-original part helps alot. I went back to the Judging Guideand looked closely at the picture and (as best I can tell) it looks to be a plain black coil. I could not find a part number on the unit.

As for the wires, I have attached another picture that shows the two stands with the "separators". The separators look original because they have a square locating pin on the backside that fits into the stand. Do you think these are correct?

Still looking for a recommendation for the "sleeve & conduit" vendor. Have you seen one(s) that you would recommend?

As always THANKS George!

phil

Phil sorry but one more thing--that is a replacement coil in the picture. Just to be sure what is the Lucas number on the coil?

Phil sorry but one more thing--that is a replacement coil in the picture. Just to be sure what is the Lucas number on the coil?

Phil go with Stew's work. (Judging guide). There is also a clip and grommet on the thermostat housing!