4 speed with o.d. conversion

Can't help with serial numbers but it doesn't matter. There never was a 4.2 Mk2 and there never was a 4.2 in any model with anything other than a 4.2 synchro box. That leaves the 3.4 and 3.8 Mk2 and other Jags which got the Moss. From September 65-ish the Mk2 swapped to the 4-synchro. So yours is a 1965 GBN bog-standard Moss which means it does not use the 133 tooth 4.2 f;ywheel but the 104 3.8 version. The geard starter was a good call but prsonally since you have bought a new alloy flywheel I would have fitted a diaphragm clutch as used behind every 4.2 engine, not the original 3.8 coil spring affair. Any modern flywheel should be drilled for both. You need the release bearing to match the clutch of course, as they differ

Correction you are 100% right Peter, i went out and determined reverse is in the same quadrant as first, so it is an earlier transmission.

Peter since you seem to be the most knowlegable re these transmissions, can you help confirm what year and what bell i have using the serial numbers i have provided. In other words was it mated to a 3.8?

Thanks for helping, MM

Thanks Peter, my trans is from '65 and reverse is over and down, but all else i agree. MM

OK, I went to the barn and compared the 4-synch/Compact Type A overdrive against your Moss with long overdrive. The tale of the tape is as follows:

1) Overall length bell face to propshaft flange: 4-synchro+OD=27". This is the same as for your existing auto box and the same as the non-OD 4-synchro long box used in 2+2 and V12 E-types (and the few hundred very early XJ-S 4-speed manuals they made for us here). Your Mk2 Moss is 34", so you will have to take 7 inches off your propshaft.

2) Bell face to rear trans mount centreline: 4-synchro 25.5", which again is the same for the Plain Jane non-OD long box and I think the BW auto. Your Moss is 30.5" so you will need to make a new rear mount quite a lot further back and hope it doesn't foul anything else?

3) Bell face to rear face of gear lever mounting lug on trans top: 4-synchro 21" versus your Moss at 19". You seemed to be saying you would cut and extend the external selector rods and extend the housing backwards to provide a new mounting point? This is not trivial and in the case of the latter would need to be pretty strong because lever mounts can take a lot of leverage sometimes, especially if the box knocks against something when out of the car. Even the factory XJ casting has been known to break. I guess that since you are converting an auto you might have some leeway as to where you want the lever to come out in your custom centre console. Certainly when people put the XJ overdrive box in an auto E-type they often like the fact that lever comes out a little further back than stock (people who already have a manual just swap the E-type top for the XJ overdrive top). But in your case you are going to have the lever come out closer to the radio console and the forward movement for reverse and first on a Moss is pretty long. You might run out of room and hit your knuckles if you don't extend everything backwards as you plan to do.

Anyway, it's a good job you are converting from an auto. Since you fancy a manual then compared to a BW slushbox even a Moss is a step forward for all your work and expense.
Good luck.

The trans in your picture is not a 4-synchro. It is a classic GBN Moss and I think you even cited the number. I was going by that.

Yes I have several of the correct transmissions coming over with me when I emigrate to the US this summer. In fact the gearboxes will get there in July whether I have my green card yet or not. When I get them out of the container will have to wait until I'm over.

Peter if not scarce in the UK, can you find or do u have the correct 4 speed or 5 speed for an early XJ?

This is a trans with syncro first, reverse is down, first is up..I drove old 911s for years now that long sloppy throw linkage makes this trans feel vintage race car precise, i cant wait to hear its noise.
It looks beautifully made inside. The o.d. unit i prefer, so 60's..
They are scarse (series 1 XJs, manual trans series 1 XJ are not available unless imported. I had a hard time finding this trans, i have to make it work, will keep you posted. Thanks MM

Peter, FYI
I called Terry's Jaguar Parts and ordered a uprated 3.8 starter $190.00 (actually better than the XJ starter)
a Aluminum 3.8 flywheel $279.00 less 15lbs and a standard 10" clutch kit. I ordered the Mark2 2 secondary clutch cylinder $90 and rear main seal rope and pilot bearing. in total it was about $1030.
Walt at Vintage Jag has the pedal boxes, comes with the master cyl., closts about $350. MM

I guess it's an American thing. Manuals must be so scarce for you that you would go to major lengths and serious money to install a non-synchro long-throw gearbox that was out of date and complained about in the E-type a decade earlier. I've never heard of anyone actually fitting a Moss box except to a car for which it was correct. We wouldn't dream of it in an XJ because we have lots of the correct ones but you don't have that luxury I suppose. Over here, people doing transmission swaps normally do so to discard Moss boxes and switch to 4-synchro.

Still, it should be more fun than a BW auto. I don't mind the Moss too much and the noise is very 'atmospheric' in say a Mk2 or other old-style car. As someone said, you should soon learn the knack of making sure you are in first rather than reverse when pulling away. The trick is to hold the lever very lightly so you don't move it too far left and overcome the weak detent. Thinking about it, the change is probably easier for LHD drivers compared to RHD where the change needs a long reach.

Looking at your box the shift lever may be about right but your propshaft and rear mount are miles out. Nothing impossible of course. I hope your tunnel can accommodate the longer OD and enlarging it if necessary does not interfere with the seats. On the E-type you'd need to cut a crossmember but not sure about the XJ. You will have to use a 3.8 flywheel and starter to suit that bell. Will dig out the measurements probably tomorrow evening.

Peter,
When i bought this '65 Mark 2 low mile 4 speed w OD i measure the o.a. dimensions (33.62"), also between bell and shift lever base (21.5") and saw an easy way to extend the shift lever to whatever seemed best suited. In a nut shell, cutting and welding a spacer in the lever rod before the bend up into the trans top. Where the shift lever pivots and travels side to side, the same dia treaded rod needs to be welded onto the threaded rod that is there and nylon spacers used to make up the difference. I was guessing around 3.5" inches would make is right but thought to wait until the auto box is completely out to make absolutely sure it was right. The driveshaft needs to be shortened 5.75" approx. to be right. There is plenty of room in the tunnel...what is the big problem??
If you have a compact 4 speed around that was used in XJs please forward the shift lever base to bellhousing edge dimension to me. Walt Osbourne at Vintage Jaguar is very accomplished, and he said he could install it for me if i wanted.. Any info is appreciated. MM

Best, MM

Sadly, there has been so much misinformation in this thread (I've only just registered for XJ) thyat Matthew is headed for a world of trouble that will only get worse if he opens another Pandora's box with the Getrag. Neither the Moss nor the Getrag will fit an XJ. I have thirteen of these various Jag boxes in my barn and they are coming over to the USA so I know whereof I speak.

65 was the changeover year for the Mk2 but regardless of Moss or 4-synchro, the Mk2 box is too long to fit an XJ without surgery. The bell. starter and flywheel would all need to match and that means an backwards step into a Bendix starter instead of the pre-engaged XJ starter. The gear lever may come out wrong - don't quite recall.

The Getrag will not bolt up to an iron block with any bell from Jag - it was only ever fitted to the alloy AJ6 engines which are totally different as to flywheel, bolt pattern, starter, clutch mech and position etc etc. The only 5-speed that would bolt up is the LT77 Rover SD1 box which again needs the flywheel, starter etc..

The alternative is a 'Compact Type A' overdrive box from an XJ which is the right length with the lever in the right place and bolts right up to a normal 4.2 bell and flywheel etc.

Diff ratios are the l;east of your worries and I would bale out of everything you've bought unless you are prepared to do serious work to the XJ to shoe-horn it in. If you post the overall length of your Moss and the distance from the front face to the base of the gearlever I will confirm the worst.

Pete

I went outside and pulled off the shift knob and wash it with and old toothbrush in the kit sink. It looks great, all the paint is in the shift pattern grooves. I was surprised it is not a white rather a light yellowish ocre white sort of color, very nice, doesn't appear to be due to age. Keeping it on my dresser, wife thinks i'm nuts. MJM

Dave,

Thank you, and i agree about the whole car but they are so rare to find..

I spoke to Walt Osbourne at Vintage Jag Works in ID, he told me i have a great Moss box, and that they are one of the most durable transmissions ever. He told me to pop off the top which i did and over the phone described what the sycros should look like and they look perfect. It is in incredible condition inside, Walt said it was cared for.

He told me this Moss trans is a straight bolt up just use a 3.8 flywheel, starter and clutch.
I am going with the Jag Trans.

Walt also told me Jaguar bought Moss right after the War and started building these transmissions in house, which i did not know, i thought that happened in the 60s.

Thanks for the help,

Matt

I contacted Walt Osborne at Vintage Jag for a parts list of what i will need to complete the Moss 4 speed conversion. I mentioned the rear ratio to him.
Thanks